HELP - UK based Lawyer wanted to handle a boat purchase!

[David_Jersey]

I thought things were going a bit too swimmingly, but unfortunately not so – to be polite I will blame it on miscommunication or perhaps a certain degree of assumption on my part – but whatever the reason, up to today I thought I had a UK based Lawyer lined up to handle my boat purchase. Now I do not (or at least not everything I need).

I basically need some help in trying to find a UK based lawyer, preferably in the Chichester area (where the boat vessel and vendor are located).

The reason why I am using a UK based lawyer is principally because I am based in Jersey, because we have a separate legal system, so cannot really use one here, plus I cannot always get across easily to the UK just to sign a bill of sale at short notice, plus also as I am dealing direct with the Vendor I want someone respectable and “Neutral” who can handle the sale proceeds, to both our satisfactions.

My thinking was that the Vendor can just pick up a cheque from the UK based lawyer when handing over a signed Bill of Sale (or even have the UK lawyer hold the Bill of Sale in “Escrow” until the Vendor gives the OK), safe in the knowledge that as the cheque won’t be under my control that it can’t be cancelled and of course it will only be issued when backed up with sufficient funds (I have the Vendors agreement to all this).

I figured that all this can be done when everyone is happy to go ahead with the deal on whatever day this is and is not dependent on both of us being free at the same time (and in my case having to get across to the UK, possibly at short notice).

To me this seems very simple, “all” the UK lawyer has to do for me is to check that the boat is on the part 1 register in the Vendors name and that no mortgages are registered against the boat and then hand over a cheque (once they have my money) in exchange for a signed Bill of Sale, and to check that the Bill of Sale has been completed correctly and is signed – PLUS he can get a copy of some ID from the Vendor –for my comfort, but also no doubt to meet his Anti-Money Laundering requirements.

The “complication” is that I want to buy the vessel using a UK registered company (I did a separate post on this a few days back, it was principally because of VAT reasons, although as pointed out it is a bit of an OTT route – many thanks for the responses on that side of things).

When I started looking for a UK based lawyer it took me about 10 firms to find one (in the Chichester area) who could grasp that someone might want a lawyer for reasons other than buying a house, making a will or being a criminal appearing in court. I will admit here that perhaps I did not persevere much with those firms whose initial point of contact had no idea what I was talking about, especially after the first few phone calls, but in the end I did find a firm who I believed could help.

Of course I did not want to incur any unnecessary costs, so as at that point I did not know for 100% sure that the boat purchase would proceed I did not go into the “nitty gritty” (my mistake of course) and “engage” them to act for me at that time.

Basically they now tell me that they are happy to sell me an “off the shelf” company (at 3 times the price that I could get one from a reputable non-lawyer – ignoring here the actual cost of forming it myself) and then hand over the purchase cheque in exchange for a Bill of Sale, but will not actually be representing / buying the boat for the company (ie not acting in the same way as they would with a house purchase) so that if they hand over the cheque without getting title in exchange – then “it is not their problem”. Although I accept the limitations of title with a boat (even one part 1 (“Blue Book”) registered) as far as I am concerned I would like to know that the UK lawyer is going to hand over my money for slightly more than a copy of last weeks Beano.

I had already reluctantly accepted that they did not want to act as Directors of the company and actually buy the boat for the company, then resign in my favour. (although I cannot really understand the reasoning behind that).

I am sure (I hope!) that I have just spoken to the wrong people / person – as I am looking to complete on this deal in around a week or so time is starting to press (especially with mailing times involved) and before I starting ringing round again (of course I have now forgotten the firms I spoke to last time!) does anyone know a UK based lawyer who could help buy a boat (or at least understand WTF I am talking about!). I would prefer Chichester area, but at the moment would settle for a lead just about anywhere…………

BTW I am not related to Osama or any Columbian cartels I JUST WANT TO BUY A BOAT!!!

 

[alienzdive]

Sent you a PM

 

[Joe_Cole]

I don't know what the boat is worth, but you mentioned in your VAT post that it was of 1970 vintage.
Are you sure that you are not making this more complicated than necessary?

 

[David_Jersey]

Yes (I am making it more complicated than perhaps neccesary!)

I view the UK company part as the last part of "Belt, braces and bit of string"

I will admit that with the UK company involved that for cost reasons I would probably have, on balance, decided against this route, however the VAT would be enough to not be pleasant (especially if I "found out" that somewhere in the Med it was somewhat higher than in the UK) but I will also have another couple of uses for a UK company in due course (which I will not bore folk with here) - so the costs will not be purely on this boat.

Buying a boat with a company is quite straightforward, even if I (as usual) do make things sound complicated! (I was perhaps also venting a bit!)

 

[Guest]

Don't forget that with a company you will have to make all the necessary annual filings on time every year. This can be a real headache to remember about every year. If you don't, the company will be struck of the register ie. cease to exist, which will not do the ownership of your boat any good.

About your cheque: the fact that it's held by the lawyers is no guarantee that you can't cancel it - you can cancel it just by telephoning your bank and asking them to block it. If the Vendor takes a cheque in return for handing over the boat then they are mad! A banker's draft is a much better way to go.

About the lawyers' attitude, I'm not surprised that they don't want to be directors of the company during the purchase. If they were they'd have certain personal liabilities and a duty to do quite a bit of research into the background to the transaction. Lawyers are normally there to advise on the law and assist to make sure that things go smoothly rather than act as parties to the transaction. There are several reasons why this is the case. One is that, if things go pear-shaped, they like to be sued only by their clients for any bad advice, not by the other side over some facts that perhaps they had no knowledge about. The other is for money laundering reasons - criminals laundering money often like to get a lawyer involved as a party because it helps to make the transaction look legitimate. I'm not saying that is your case of course, just explaining to you their attitude!

 

[Lizzie_B]

You seem to be making things very complicated, which is usually what causes things to go pear shaped.

If you are going to keep the boat Part 1 British Registered, then VAT, from as I remember the circumstances described in your last post, will not be an issue as long as you enter any EU port every now and again.
Going to the Med will make no difference as you will still be able to pop into EU waters every six months or so.

I would think the vast majority of lawyers would not have any particular knowledge of the legalities involved in a boat sale, and those companies who specialise in the setting up of companies to facilitate yacht purchase I would imagine would be very expensive for the sort of boat you describe, and usually do it the other way around, ie setting up companies in the C.I. for brit citizens to avoid paying VAT on boat purchased in EU.
I don't see any advantage to be gained by setting up a company to facilitate the purchase of the boat.

 

[blumed]

A cheque cannot be cancelled or blocked by simply phoning at the bank. There must be a valid reason like 'Lost cheque'. However a cheque is not a guarantee that there are funds in the account, so in this case I agree that a bankers draft is safer in any transaction of this type.

 

[Boots]

Just a word of caution here.

I think most of us think that a bankers draft is a good as cash, it isn't!
I understand that a bankers draft guarantees that there are funds available for the amount of the draft, but it does not mean that the draft cannot be "stopped," even if the draft is within your possesion.

A colleague at work got caught out by this, fortunately it was resolved without loss to him.

Perhaps there are some bankers on the forum who can advise.

 

[blumed]

I am not involved in banking but as far as I know No cheque can be "stopped" unless the cheque has been declared as lost. The bank cannot process a 'stop pay' unless the transaction proves to be(or is suspected to be) fraudulent or involves some other sort of illegal trading.

 

[Guest]

My bank will stop a cheque if I ask them, I don't recall them asking why last time i did it, but they do charge a fee for it!

 

[David_Jersey]

Plenty of valid points raised.

Although I beleive that what I am proposing is the "best" way for <u>me</u> theoretically, I am going to think again about the "in practice" and the trade off of the costs against potential problems - and perhaps I am "thinking too mutt" and seeing risks where in practice there aren't any or they are not that big - with the downside for getting it wrong "doable" by writing a VAT cheque (if not pleasant!).

As you have all taken the time to respond to my "witterings" I will do likewise.


I was intending that the Vendor get a cheque drawn on the Lawyer's Account, however regarding the Vendor accepting a personal cheque - I would think that anyone who accepts a cheque from someone they do not know (or even someone they do know!) for a reasonable amount of money is risking trouble. My understanding is that a cheque can get stopped / bounced even up to 10 days (or more?) down the line and that even the "express" clearing (with extra charge attached) is essentialy useless.

I beleive that Bank Drafts are Ok to a degree, as long as you know it is genuine. Although I believe that they can be "stopped" (I guess all you would have to do is tell your bank you had lost it!).

Regarding the UK lawyers attitude about not wanting to be Directors of the company, but are happy to provide a registered office - the funny thing is (from my perspective) that down here in "Offshore" Jersey, the opposite is usually the case. Different rules of course, I've got a bit of experiance on the AML front and appreciate the firms concerns, but IMHO neither are the "right" way as a blanket approach, but that's a different thread (and website!).

Of course once this is all sorted I will have to change my Login name - as I wouldn't want folk to start thinking I had a boat with "dodgy" VAT status /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Anyway, thanks again folks.

 

[angelsson]

That I understand applies to France where it is illegal to stop a cheque. can only be declared 'lost or stolen'
It is an acceptable and often used practice in the UK.

 

[angelsson]

Quite correct, a draft is only good when your bank confirms payment received into your account, usually quicker than a cheque.