Help please, totally stuck in a very bad place after a yacht sale, dispute! Help!

>The two owners and myself looked at all the sails that were present and they told me specifically that the Storm Gib, the Spinnaker and the Dacron mainsail were missing along with, genoa lines, spinnaker sheets, spinnaker tweakers, morring lines and various other warps and sheets were missing.

Did the owners claim the things were missing, as in lost which seems highly unlikely, or did the owners say they had taken them off the boat? If so and they were on the inventory when you paid for the boat then they have stolen them and are legally liable to return them, the broker is not. If they have taken them off then the Small Claims system now deals with claims of up to £10,000, after increasing from £5,000 on 1 April. See here for details: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales..._e/law_taking_legal_action_e/small_claims.htm

Also contact the police explain what happened and that you are reporting a theft of 8,000 pounds worth of goods. They will give you a case number which will help in any action and for that amount they may take action. Tell the broker what you are doing and the seller, if you don't have the seller's details ask the broker. Good luck.
 
Our boat buying was not without hiccups and the seller became pretty unco-operative and tried to strip the boat of items after the sale was a done deal, but fortunately before we'd handed over cash, or legally accepted the boat. The Broker put him right for us.

FWIW, for anyone trying to buy a second hand boat, I recommend the RYA book "buying a second hand boat". It was our bible during the sale negotiations and served us well.

There is no legal requirement to hand money over to the broker before you have the boat in your possession. We paid our deposit, but refused point blank to hand over the cash until we were happy with the boat; the broker didn't like it, but he didn't argue. After all, you are bound by the contract you have made. Legally, you have to hand over the money within 7 days of taking possession of the boat.
 
maby said:
Doesn't seem likely here - according to the OP, the seller is confirming that the items in question are included with the boat - seems that they have either been lost or stolen. it seems to me that the sale is not complete till the buyer has accepted the boat and the cash has been handed over. It is for the seller to find or replace the missing items, or to revise the inventory and agree an amended price.
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The sale is complete. Title has passed when the money was handed over to the broker. He is holding it in a trust account on behalf of the seller.

The dispute is about what was included in the contract - which should be an agreed inventory. The buyer can reject the goods as not being as described in the contract. Will not be easy to sort out if there is disagreement between the broker and the seller about who is responsible for the missing items, but the broker holding the money ought to incentivise the seller to deal with the problem.
 
Tranona said:
The sale is complete. Title has passed when the money was handed over to the broker. He is holding it in a trust account on behalf of the seller.

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Don't think so - it is common to give the money to the broker to put in their escrow account before the sale is complete - avoids delays waiting for the cash to clear. We don't know the cost of this boat, but it is common for them to exceed the sum that can be paid in a single online banking transaction.

As soon as you've signed a contract of sale, you are committed to completing the process unless a significant defect becomes clear. On the completion date, you sign accepting the boat and it becomes yours while the cash is free to be released to the seller. It's not clear from the OP whether or not he has formally accepted the boat - if he has, then he is rather dependent on the seller to deal fairly with him, they would be within their rights to say "you accepted it, it's yours!"
 
If you are a member of the RYA, you can use their legal services for free.
I am and have done, with a rapidly successful outcome.
Another good reason to join the only UK yachting organisation with any real clout.
 
I know the owners and would rate them as totally honourable people, and would be quite certain that they have not tried to " lift" any gear out of this sale.
If the missing kit is included on your contract inventory then either it must be found or a cash adjustment agreed. Be sure you are working on the right inventory - I notice that the Schmidt advert only mentions one mainsail, whereas you suggest two. I don't think that used kit off a much-raced Sigma 33 is going to command much value, so don't expect much.
The boat has been on the market for quite some time and it seems quite likely to me that the broker could have taken this stuff off the boat and mislaid it. If you look in the back storerooms of most 2/h brokers you will find piles of stuff removed from boats that are out on display. Lifejackets are an obvious item, taken off to be dry-stored. Given a bit of time they will probably locate it from wherever it was placed all that time ago.
 
I guess it's a reminder to do an inventory check before signing the contract. I think mine had a statement in it saying that I had inspected and confirmed the inventory items, or I had satisfied myself that all listed items were present and correct. I presume yours doesn't. if it does then it would weaken your case.

When you handed over the money/signed was it stated that all items were on the boat, or that some items would be provided later out of storage and what they were? Sounds like you took it all on faith. I would have looked at every sail before buying to see what state they were in, and same for all the other kit, as it may have affected what I offered. I guess that doesn't help much.

The best you can probably do is kick up a stink and keep doing so until you get to a result you are happy with. If the owner is not disputing they should be there then redress should be a negotiated reduction in value based on the worth of the items of a similar age and wear plus a hassle factor, or cancellation of the contract, as goods have not been provided as contracted.

For items not in the inventory there is probably not much comeback unless you have some other record to show they were included, or were present when you looked over it and were not stated as not being included. if the owner is admitting they should be there in front of witnesses then add those in to the reduction in value.
 
Not knowing the full ins and out of the deal , surely if you had a contact and a inventory which states that this this and this comes with the boat , it up to the seller to make sure every thing is on the boat the day of the change over , if some how the broker may have lost some of the stuff , then it between the seller and the broker to sort out . The buyer is in his legal right to reject the yacht until every thing is found or replace , maybe you should start talking about pulling out of the sale , that may get things moving .
I have sold a few yacht in my time and I always had to check every thing with the buyer before money was handed over to me .
I have to add I dealt with Schmidt some years back , brought a Moody 336 from there sister company in Germany both company in the UK and in Germany where very good , and making sure every thing was in order
www.bluewatersaitorcroatia.webs.com
 
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I met the ownwers on Sunday and they were a delight to deal with, they helped me rig a mainsail even though it wasn't the one I wanted to put up, the one I wanted to rig was a dacron main that was missing, they were even nice enough to dictate to me the things that were missing as I wrote it all down, a rarity to say the least.
I know that the value of such items do not come to original value, all I want and need are the items that were on the brokers list and the items that the owners pointed out of which the 2 owners were sure had been left on the boat the last time they were on it.
Things seem to have gone "walkies" and I am totally sure that the owners would not have taken them off the boat.
The fact that during the course of today all the brokers did was to pass the buck and not take accountabilty for anything annoyed me to say the least.
At one poin they suggested I take 2 old pieces of warp that were about 8 metres long and tie them together in ordert to make a genoa sheet!!
They totally passed the buck by passing the fault on to the two owners etc.
I might of been born at night.... but not last night.
I'm sure if the boat had cost me 100k plus things would of been sorted sharpish and much sooner.
 
I have wasted a day breathing down their necks whilst making it clear that I am far from happy, somehow they keep trying to blame me or the owners and do not take ownership of their c*ckup!
 
All I want is to stop hearing brokers blame owners and to get what I paid for and that doesn't necesarily have to be new kit or cash sweetners, I just want to be treated fairly and stop running around doing what they should be doing for me, they are on comission and it should be irrelevant if they are selling boats for 5k or 500k, they are there to offer a service and adhere to certain things and the correct way to deal with clients etc, it's not rocket science.
 
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I understand you are upset and feel wronged, but you are not listening to advice. The brokers act for the seller, not for you. Your dispute is with the sellers, no matter how nice they appear to be.
 
norti_raskal said:
All I want is to stop hearing brokers blame owners and to get what I paid for and that doesn't necesarily have to be new kit or cash sweetners, I just want to be treated fairly and stop running around doing what they should be doing for me, they are on comission and it should be irrelevant if they are selling boats for 5k or 500k, they are there to offer a service and adhere to certain things and the correct way to deal with clients etc, it's not rocket science.
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Sadly not. These are not lawyers they are agents. Like estate agents in fact, their sole duty (and what they are paid for by the seller) is to find a buyer for a boat. They have done that and have no real responsibility other than professional pride to do more. You know any estate agents with professional pride? Like with buying a house, if you want any kind of legal protection you need a lawyer. The problem is that lawyers are not worth the money when buying a second hand boat of normal value.
 
I have written a long email and text to the sellers not asking for the earth but for them to see the situation and asking if they can rectify the wrongs by replacing the things that were missing, I have had absolutely no reply, I am seriously considering returning the boat at this point, I'll sleep on it and see what tomorrow brings.
 
Reading the various posts here I find the fact that the owners don't seem to be very annoyed and determined to get to the bottom of it seems very suspicious.
I realise someone on this thread has spoken in support of them, but if it were my boat I was selling and items were missing I would be both mortified and apoplectic.
 
it seems to me that no one is really giving a damn and its me that is running around trying to get things sorted whilst getting annoyed about something that really should not be an issue.
I'm thick skinned and have the patience of a saint but im getting to the point of getting very angry indeed, this should not be happening and when people try to make me feel bad for their mistakes that really gets my goat.
 
biscuit said:
If you are a member of the RYA, you can use their legal services for free.
I am and have done, with a rapidly successful outcome.
Another good reason to join the only UK yachting organisation with any real clout.
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+1. Saved me loads last year.
 
maby said:
Don't think so - it is common to give the money to the broker to put in their escrow account before the sale is complete - avoids delays waiting for the cash to clear. We don't know the cost of this boat, but it is common for them to exceed the sum that can be paid in a single online banking transaction.
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Sorry, but I am afraid you are wrong. The broker is agent for the seller. Paying the broker money and getting clear title in return is exactly the same as paying the money direct to the owner. It is NOT the broker's money - he is just holding it in trust for the seller. The broker must pass the money to the seller within the time stipulated in the contract between the broker and the seller.

However, this is irrelevant with respect to the buyer's claim. He is saying that the boat as delivered was not in accordance with the contract in that items included in the contract are not there. It is also irrelevant whether the seller or the broker has them physically, the seller has agreed to sell them and not delivered.

The buyer can reject the boat or come to an agreement about a price that reflects the missing items.

As others have said it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that everything as described in the contract is there before handing over the money - otherwise there is potential for disputes such as this.
 
Just to be clear on one point. Had you or some representative of yours seen the missing items before you completed the purchase? If not had you queried their whereabouts prior to completion? While it's true that if the inventory forms part of the contract then you are entitled to receive everything listed in it, in practice i would have expected the missing items to have been noted, and taken into account in negotiation, prior to completion. Much less painful for all parties, IMHO.
A.
 
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