HELP - Insurance claim nightmare, never been here before.

[RebelBex]

Our fin keel boat was laid up when a neighbouring larger boat fell on her. It's been traumatic as you can imagine.

The thing is I've never had to make a claim for anything to do with boating and now I am having to, I'm feeling very vulnerable and disappointed and want to know if this is the norm.

This all came about because another boat owner allegedly moved the chocks onto a wet coating and they simply slipped out. I therefore thought his insurers would take care of things and have the damage assessed, but no such luck. We apparently have to go through our insurers, who have said they'll not cover any surveyors report, just quotes for the work, which there is alot of! I'm no expert, how the hell do I ensure all the works covered, there is bound to be damaged unseen. There isn't even a list of approved repairs to ensure we deal with trusted businesses.

Desperate for some trustworthy guidance, I'm certainly not getting it from my insurer which has come as a shock! And funny enough their renewal arrived today.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[duncan]

I don't know fin keels, or this type of incident claim - but I do know that when I had to make a claim the insurers simply wanted an estimate (against which they then employed a loss-adjuster but this was actually a good thing....) for 'everything'.

Basically you either need to be right on top of everything yourself, or get a business to 'quote' for the whole job. How you go about picking someone is another matter - it would probably help if you could advise where, and the make and model of boat...

 

[MoodySabre]

Well you can't manage this properly without and independent surveyor. So appoint one and have a very full survey. Claim the cost from the other boat owner and if he doesn't pay then take him to to the small claims court.

Frankly I find it strange that your insurance doesn't cover this - if all the work isn't done properly then they might get another claim. Anyway, none of this was your fault and therefore you should not be put to any expense. The stress is quite enough - tough luck and hope it gets sorted satisfactorily.

 

[oldfatgit]

Second MoodySabre. The thing about an independant surveyor is that what he identifies will be believed and when instructing him, you can ask him to look at any damage you are particularly concerned about. So have a good look over your boat and instruct one. It will cost you a few hundreds, however, if you have leagal protection with your insurance company you should be able to get help to recover any un-insured costs, such as the surveyor.

 

[mainmarine]

Do you have any other insurance that includes legal cover? eg household, personal insurance. If so you can perhaps ask them to take over the claim for uninsured losses, the survey etc.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

You don't have to go through your insurer - that is your decision and no one else's. The other parties insurer might not talk to you but no matter - your claim is against the other party. Whether or not his losses are covered by his insurance is his problem not yours.

Now you have a duty to keep the other parties losses to the minimum by being prudent but if you really need to hire a surveyor, then the other party has to pay the fees.

What your own insurance company will or will not pay is a matter of the contract between you and them so it's quite possible if you continue to use your own insurance company that they refuse items like a survey that the other guy still has to pay.

Best advice is to sit down, have a drink and calm down. Then decide whether you wish to persue your claim direct against the other party ( which will likely involve stress and time and maybe a degree of confrontation) or through your own insurance company which will damage your NCB and may well limit what you can claim for.

There is a third way, using a lawyer. But having been through a big claim I would not recommend that route if you can avoid it.

 

[MoodySabre]

He has a legal responsibility to put you back in the position you were before this incident occured. You won't know what that is without independent advice. I agree that it shouldn't fall on your insurance so survey, estimates, claim against him, sue if necessary.

How can you be "prudent" without knowing the extent of the damage?

 

[Richard10002]

Looks like it's all been said, but needs pulling together.

1) Have a full survey - pay for it yourself, (£600 or so I guess). Send the bill to the owner of the other boat, and ask him to ask his insurer for the money. If he doesnt pay.... take him to the small claims court.

2) Get quotes for all the work/damage the surveyor identifies. Ask the surveyor to recommend 2 or 3 firms who could do the whole job, also ask the surveyor for a quote for overseeing the work.

3) Send the quotes to your insurance company, as they requested, and ask them to sort out the damage for you.

If your insurance company gets awkward, consider appointing a loss assessor, (loss assessors work for the insured... loss adjustors work for the insurer). Insurers hate it when you appoint a loss assessor, as the loss assessor gets the max. possible out of them.

But beware... loss assessors usually work on the basis of a %age of the claim acheived, so you could feel like you have lost out, although they will probably have earned their fee, and more.

 

[savageseadog]

The first thing a marine insurance company normally does is appoint a surveyor to assess the damage, it's at their cost but you'll have an excess. It's up to you to get the estimates after that. Be aware that a surveyor cannot advise you what repairer to use (or not) so take the greatest care in choosing one. Always go for a single repairer to do the whole job, one point of contact when things go wrong. Document and record all conversations, ensure there is a detailed method statement in the quotations for every aspect of the repair..........and I mean detailed to the size and type of screws, resins glass fibre etc. Recommendations might be made by people without any real basis in fact so treat them with care. Finally if the job is a big one you should consider appointing your own surveyor to inspect the quotes and supervise the work. All out of pocket expenses could be recoverable from the other party if you can prove negligence

Regarding the accident, try and obtain a witness statement. Did the yacht have a furling sail on the forestay (or in mast furling) and did it unwind? It's a very common occurrence

 

[lenseman]

. . . Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the YBW Forums, sorry about your problem.

I agree with everything tht has been said above but would like to add the question, "Are you a member of the RYA?"

The RYA has a very good legal department which might be able to advise or assist.

I wish you the best of luck. By the way, where do you live in the world??

 

[TradewindSailor]

Get the most experience surveyor you can find. Make sure that he has expert witness experience as you may need it.

Photograph every thing you can including the condition of the other boat.

Read your yard contract. The yard may be liable.

At the end of the day you are entitled to be put back into a similar condition that you were in prior to the accident ...... and that includes reinbursement of all your costs.

If this proceeds to law, try for agreed arbitration. I understand that it is both cheaper and quicker.

If you have the resources, get on with the repairs after your survey. Further faults could be found and these can be added to the claim. If you delay it may be impossible to get additional costs from other side. It is not for your insurer or theirs to agree on the repairer. This is your decision. Do get three or more quotes from reputable companies though.

 

[Ubergeekian]

At the end of the day you are entitled to be put back into a similar condition that you were in prior to the accident ...... and that includes reinbursement of all your costs.

If major repairs are necessary it may be worth getting professional opinions on loss of value and claiming that too. Some years ago a gliding club of which I was a member bought a brand new glider. While the UK agents were moving it from Germany to their workshop for the instrument fit, they rolled it on the motorway. Initially they simply demanded money to do the repair - after some fairly forceful negotiation they did the repair for free and paid a VERY substantial sum for loss of value ... a glider which has been snapped in two and fixed is never worth as much as one which has remained intact!

 

[dt4134]

Based on the experience of a friend, don't trust your insurance company's surveyor to act in your best interest. After all they are employed by the insurance company.

If the damage is non-trivial (sounds like it is) employ a good surveyor to act on your behalf. Claim the cost back from the other parties insurance.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Based on the experience of a friend, don't trust your insurance company's surveyor to act in your best interest. After all they are employed by the insurance company.

If the damage is non-trivial (sounds like it is) employ a good surveyor to act on your behalf. Claim the cost back from the other parties insurance.

Absolutely agree apart from the last sentence. He can't claim anything back from the other party's insurance - he can only claim off his own insurance or off the other party (i.e. yacht owner) themselves. It is up to the other party to get reimbursement from his insurance company. In practice the other party's insurance may be willing to deal direct with you.

I'm surprised at the behaviour of RebelBex's insurers - in the automotive world his insurers would agree liability with the other party and any excess recovered as well. I would have thought the claim would be against the yard providing the storage as well - not the other boat owner.

One option may be to find a boatyard that has a surveyor working for it - some have - and get a free survey as part of the repairs.

 

[TQA]

1 Photograph everything your boat, lots on the damage, his boat, the stands - everything date and time stamp is good.

2 Keep a log of the events and all subsequent communications and keep copies of everything.

3 If you have a conversation with someone about the claim and there is anything of substance discussed write it up as soon as possible and send the other party a copy.

4 Try and get anybody who witnessed anything to write it down. If they are reluctant, talk to them, write it out yourself and get them to at least initial every page. GET THEIR NAMES AND ADDRESSES. This can be difficult so you may need to be diplomatic, phrases like "in the remote possibility" etc.

5 Be wary if a cash settlement is offered or they attempt to get you to agree to accept some repair - watch for the phrase " in full and final settlement". This means what it says.

6 Keep a seperate log tied to the main one of all additional expenses you incur, anything you would not otherwise have done or spent. Phone calls, car trips mileage and reason, anything at all.

7 As you will be denied the pleasure of your boat are you going to hire a substitute? I do ot think you would get away with a long term charter but for the days you actually use the boat you can charter a substitute of equal size.

8 Be prepared for the word "betterment" to enter your vocabulary.

DEFINITION

If the settlement of the Claim results in the insured being in a better financial position than he was before the loss occurred, the extent of the improvement to his position is known as ‘betterment’ and he would be expected to contribute towards the Claims settlement.

eg if part of your 5 year old standing rigging is replaced at a cost of £1000 expect to be asked to contribute £300-£500 towards this.

9 Last but not least at the end of the repairs the yard doing the work may ask you to sign that you are satisfied with the repair. They may refuse to hand over the boat until you sign it. You need to inspect the boat at your own speed and sail it to see if the work is done.

 

[Spyro]

1 Photograph everything your boat, lots on the damage, his boat, the stands - everything date and time stamp is good.

2 Keep a log of the events and all subsequent communications and keep copies of everything.

3 If you have a conversation with someone about the claim and there is anything of substance discussed write it up as soon as possible and send the other party a copy.

4 Try and get anybody who witnessed anything to write it down. If they are reluctant, talk to them, write it out yourself and get them to at least initial every page. GET THEIR NAMES AND ADDRESSES. This can be difficult so you may need to be diplomatic, phrases like "in the remote possibility" etc.

5 Be wary if a cash settlement is offered or they attempt to get you to agree to accept some repair - watch for the phrase " in full and final settlement". This means what it says.

6 Keep a seperate log tied to the main one of all additional expenses you incur, anything you would not otherwise have done or spent. Phone calls, car trips mileage and reason, anything at all.

7 As you will be denied the pleasure of your boat are you going to hire a substitute? I do ot think you would get away with a long term charter but for the days you actually use the boat you can charter a substitute of equal size.

8 Be prepared for the word "betterment" to enter your vocabulary.

DEFINITION

If the settlement of the Claim results in the insured being in a better financial position than he was before the loss occurred, the extent of the improvement to his position is known as ‘betterment’ and he would be expected to contribute towards the Claims settlement.

eg if part of your 5 year old standing rigging is replaced at a cost of £1000 expect to be asked to contribute £300-£500 towards this.

9 Last but not least at the end of the repairs the yard doing the work may ask you to sign that you are satisfied with the repair. They may refuse to hand over the boat until you sign it. You need to inspect the boat at your own speed and sail it to see if the work is done.

And when all that is done let us know who your insurer is or was

 

[TradewindSailor]

If you deal with the other owner's insurance company directly be aware that they will probably delay settling for as long as they can, which may be never without the legal intervention. Their additional legal costs will probably be insignificant as they will have in-house legal departments.

If on the other hand you insist on dealing with the owner, he is more likely to use his influence to get thing settled more quickly. The threat of handing it over to your attorneys may also have some weight, but attorneys can also delay things too.

Good luck ..... and let us know how you get on.

 

[RebelBex]

Thank You

Thank You all so much for your quick and very informative replies. It's really wonderful to know there is so much support when things get choppy. You've certainly helped me to focus on the best way forward.

Thanks again.

 

[oldharry]

You really do need a thorough independent Survey, otherwise there could be years of expensive legal wrangling ahead about whether specific areas of repair were actually necessary, and do not constitute 'improvements' to your boat that you have slipped in at their expense. You also need an independent assessment that will stand up in court if necessary of the extent of damage to your boatr. You also need to have a comprehensive schedule of the repairs you expect to have done to reinstate your boat.

The cost, as has already been pointed out should be down to the other party, though if your Insurers are not interested you may have to pay intially and claim the cost + interest! Keep a close track of all your costs - including additional boat yard fees while your boat is awaiting repair.

I am very surprised that your insurers are not insisting on all this to protect your interests. I would strongly suggest you need to change insurers once this is dealt with. My rigging was snagged by a passing Baltic Trader while I was berthed in a Marina. I was not even aboard at the time. Damage fortunately was limited to replacing some fittings, and having the mast out for checking - under £500 total including the riggers time to inspect it all. My Insurance Company, Bishop Skinner, even though they knew that it was a 'no fault' situation fell over themselves to be helpful, ringing me twice to see if I needed their help to get things sorted and following up a couple of weeks later to ensure the other party had paid up promptly.

 

[oldfatgit]

You really do need a thorough independent Survey, otherwise there could be years of expensive legal wrangling ahead about whether specific areas of repair were actually necessary, and do not constitute 'improvements' to your boat that you have slipped in at their expense. You also need an independent assessment that will stand up in court if necessary of the extent of damage to your boatr. You also need to have a comprehensive schedule of the repairs you expect to have done to reinstate your boat.

The cost, as has already been pointed out should be down to the other party, though if your Insurers are not interested you may have to pay intially and claim the cost + interest! Keep a close track of all your costs - including additional boat yard fees while your boat is awaiting repair.

I am very surprised that your insurers are not insisting on all this to protect your interests. I would strongly suggest you need to change insurers once this is dealt with. My rigging was snagged by a passing Baltic Trader while I was berthed in a Marina. I was not even aboard at the time. Damage fortunately was limited to replacing some fittings, and having the mast out for checking - under £500 total including the riggers time to inspect it all. My Insurance Company, Bishop Skinner, even though they knew that it was a 'no fault' situation fell over themselves to be helpful, ringing me twice to see if I needed their help to get things sorted and following up a couple of weeks later to ensure the other party had paid up promptly.

Years since I made a claim on Bishop Skinner, but they were fantasitc and so I have stayed with them. I hope the OP's company was a different one.