Help, can I re-use TTY bolts on Ford diesel

[Jcorstorphine]

At long last I have got all the bits together to rebuild my Ford 1.6D engine having got the block re-bored and new +30# pistons, new main and big end bearings, a new cylinder head (to replace the exiting cracked one) new water pump and all the gaskets. Big problem is that I cannot find new bolts for the main bearings, big ends and flywheel bolts and the manual warns of dire consequences of re-using the old bolts. The bolts are 3/8” UNF and 7/16” UNC and 7/16” UNF “Stretch to Yield” type

Try as I might and even with the power of the internet, I have been unable to source a supplier and was wondering about using standard High Tensile bolts and setting them to their maximum torque with a dab of loctite to make sure they don’t rattle loose. Unfortunately, the maximum torque is in fact only the initial torque of the Stretch to Yield bolts which are then subjected to almost a further 90 degrees of angle tightening as shown below

The Big End bolts are tightened to a specific torque and then through two stages of angle tightening of 50 degrees and then further 25 degrees

The Main Bearing bolts are tightened in the same manner but only have a single angle set of 75 degrees

The Flywheel bolts is to a specific torque and then two angle sets of 40 + 40 degrees

Now here is the dilemma, do I reuse the existing bolts or use new non “Torque to Yield” bolts and slap on some loctite.

One point is that the engine in its car variant runs up to 54 hp at 4800 rpm but I will only be running at 25 hp @ 2000 rpm.

Worried of Clyde.

Also posted on PBO.

 

[larson250]

Try a search for ARP bolts. They do all special bolts for race engines etc.

Might be worth a shot.

 

[Cymrogwyllt]

I pity you if you're using that engine.

I had a less than 18 month old frod Escort with that engine in.

Damn thing would start on a hot day if the wind was in the right direction.

It got to the point when the pupils at school would routinely ask to push start the thing at the end of the day despite it having a brand new HD battery.

Someone kindly wrote off the beast for me.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Cant be that bad

I pity you if you're using that engine.

I had a less than 18 month old frod Escort with that engine in.

Damn thing would start on a hot day if the wind was in the right direction.

It got to the point when the pupils at school would routinely ask to push start the thing at the end of the day despite it having a brand new HD battery.

Someone kindly wrote off the beast for me.

It can't be that bad, it was designed in Germany for Ford UK so it must be good. To be honest I liked the engine as it was easy to work on and always started without a problem and that was with low compression on one cylinder. I just wanted to keep it running so embarked on a total rebuild rather than tear my boat apart to fit a new Japanese engine and would never never fit a Volvo

 

[volvopaul]

It can't be that bad, it was designed in Germany for Ford UK so it must be good. To be honest I liked the engine as it was easy to work on and always started without a problem and that was with low compression on one cylinder. I just wanted to keep it running so embarked on a total rebuild rather than tear my boat apart to fit a new Japanese engine and would never never fit a Volvo

Why have so many people got such hang ups with volvopenta marine engines?

Volvo have been producing PURE 100% derived marine engines since the start, not automotive based units that DONT last, with the exception of the D3 thats another story and the sooner they ditch it the better, even the new one, its not even that good in the focus or the volvo cars.

Te old 1.6 ford escort and fiesta unit was quickly dropped in favour of the 1.8 which carried on for years.

I am surprised that the stretch bolts are NLA id try Ferraris piston services they should be able to source them for you, failing that they must be some genuine Ford stock out there.

I am surprised you have chosen that engine to use in marine guise.

Id also try Lancing marine as they source old stock engine parts from the USA.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Why have so many people got such hang ups with volvopenta marine engines?

Volvo have been producing PURE 100% derived marine engines since the start, not automotive based units that DONT last, with the exception of the D3 thats another story and the sooner they ditch it the better, even the new one, its not even that good in the focus or the volvo cars.

Te old 1.6 ford escort and fiesta unit was quickly dropped in favour of the 1.8 which carried on for years.

I am surprised that the stretch bolts are NLA id try Ferraris piston services they should be able to source them for you, failing that they must be some genuine Ford stock out there.

I am surprised you have chosen that engine to use in marine guise.

Id also try Lancing marine as they source old stock engine parts from the USA.

Thanks for the reply

My abhorrence of Volvo stems from a miserable Volvo MD2B in my Westerly Pentland which I had to rebuild. I can buy a full set of pistons today for my 1.6D for less than one piston for my MD2B back in 1996.

I know the 1.6 was dropped for the 1.8 but the 1.6 is a stronger engine with a gear driven fuel pump and only one elastic band running the camshaft whereas the 1.8 has two rubber bands with one of them running the camshaft, the oil pump and the water pump, the other running the fuel pump.

My 1.6D puts out 25 Hp at 2000 rpm and is quite smooth and the reason I decided to rebuild it was that I had low compression on one cylinder.

I have tried Lancing but they can’t help and Ferraris website seems to be on the blink.

Regards

John

 

[jimaxum]

Hello jcorstorphine,
Have you tried Pistons & Components in Glasgow (0141 339 8685). I have used them quite a few times when doing rebuilds and are pretty good at sourcing parts if they do not have what you are after in stock.
Regards Jimaxum.

 

[Bilgediver]

At long last I have got all the bits together to rebuild my Ford 1.6D engine having got the block re-bored and new +30# pistons, new main and big end bearings, a new cylinder head (to replace the exiting cracked one) new water pump and all the gaskets. Big problem is that I cannot find new bolts for the main bearings, big ends and flywheel bolts and the manual warns of dire consequences of re-using the old bolts. The bolts are 3/8” UNF and 7/16” UNC and 7/16” UNF “Stretch to Yield” type

Try as I might and even with the power of the internet, I have been unable to source a supplier and was wondering about using standard High Tensile bolts and setting them to their maximum torque with a dab of loctite to make sure they don’t rattle loose. Unfortunately, the maximum torque is in fact only the initial torque of the Stretch to Yield bolts which are then subjected to almost a further 90 degrees of angle tightening as shown below

The Big End bolts are tightened to a specific torque and then through two stages of angle tightening of 50 degrees and then further 25 degrees

The Main Bearing bolts are tightened in the same manner but only have a single angle set of 75 degrees

The Flywheel bolts is to a specific torque and then two angle sets of 40 + 40 degrees

Now here is the dilemma, do I reuse the existing bolts or use new non “Torque to Yield” bolts and slap on some loctite.

One point is that the engine in its car variant runs up to 54 hp at 4800 rpm but I will only be running at 25 hp @ 2000 rpm.

Worried of Clyde.

Also posted on PBO.

You might find this interesting.


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/2343/threaded_fasteners_torquetoyield_and_torquetoangle.aspx


Have you tried Partco or any other engine builder as these bolts are probably standard sizes. They will probably be Grade 8 as mentioned in the article.

As there is a risk of taking these bolts beyond yield then no they should not be reused as they could have lost some of their their elasticity.

At the end of the day as you use the engine at reduced revs and reduced power then usung standard HT Grade 8 bolts tightened using a similar process should be fine and as belt and braces I would also tabulate the torques that obtained the different angles so that if one value was out of line and low I could identify a possible problem so use a different bolt.

If tabulating beware of bolts say on the head which are a different minimum diameter on the shank or different length as this will cause variations in the torque versus angle due to obtaining more elastic deformity in longer or thinner bolts.

A well designed engine will have all head bolts identical!!!!

We used this double check process and Pielstick mariine cylinder heads where in this case we would stretch the bolts using hydraulic jacks and run down the nuts by hand to secure.. After a few failures we discvered the hydraulic system was not 100% and sometimes due to poor connection design one of the 10 jacks would lock out during the operation. In this case we took the pressure up in steps of 1000psi and double checked we achieved the same angle on all nuts for each step.

This should only be a hiccup and not stop your rebuild.

 

[omega2]

head bolts

item no 280452303168 on that site

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Thanks for the link

You might find this interesting.


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/2343/threaded_fasteners_torquetoyield_and_torquetoangle.aspx


Have you tried Partco or any other engine builder as these bolts are probably standard sizes. They will probably be Grade 8 as mentioned in the article.

As there is a risk of taking these bolts beyond yield then no they should not be reused as they could have lost some of their their elasticity.

At the end of the day as you use the engine at reduced revs and reduced power then usung standard HT Grade 8 bolts tightened using a similar process should be fine and as belt and braces I would also tabulate the torques that obtained the different angles so that if one value was out of line and low I could identify a possible problem so use a different bolt.

If tabulating beware of bolts say on the head which are a different minimum diameter on the shank or different length as this will cause variations in the torque versus angle due to obtaining more elastic deformity in longer or thinner bolts.

A well designed engine will have all head bolts identical!!!!

We used this double check process and Pielstick mariine cylinder heads where in this case we would stretch the bolts using hydraulic jacks and run down the nuts by hand to secure.. After a few failures we discvered the hydraulic system was not 100% and sometimes due to poor connection design one of the 10 jacks would lock out during the operation. In this case we took the pressure up in steps of 1000psi and double checked we achieved the same angle on all nuts for each step.

This should only be a hiccup and not stop your rebuild.

Thanks for the link and the subsequent text. I have found what looks to be very near the correct bolts (within 2 mm in length and have checked that they will not bottom out) for the big ends at Burtons but they say that they do not deal with Diesel engines and concentrate on petrol engines however I do recal that the Watermota Seapanther was based on the Ford Kent engine and I am pretty sure the my 1600D is based on the same block. Going to phone them on Monday and have another read of the atricle.

John

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Got them

item no 280452303168 on that site

Thanks for the link, but have already got new head bolts, was spoiled for choice as lots of people selling them.

Regards

John

 

[Marsupial]

Why have so many people got such hang ups with volvopenta marine engines?

Volvo have been producing PURE 100% derived marine engines since the start, not automotive based units that DONT last, with the exception of the D3 thats another story and the sooner they ditch it the better, even the new one, its not even that good in the focus or the volvo cars.

.

Oh and not forgetting that masterpiece of engineering the MD22 - an Austin Montigo "engine"¬ apparently . . .

 

[PaulGooch]

Oh and not forgetting that masterpiece of engineering the MD22 - an Austin Montigo "engine"¬ apparently . . .

Was fitted to some cars, but was the Perkins Prima engine.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Bolts are on order

Believe it or not, I have got the TTY bolts on order from of all places,… Ford. I got them from www.Fordpartsuk.com via their Contact us form. I had tried the local main Ford Dealers but was given the brush off and given to understand that Ford were no longer stocking items for these old engines.

The guy that answered my request for spares emailed me at just after Sunday midnight to confirm some details and I had a formal quote by 0400 this morning for Big End, Main Bearing and Flywheel Bolts. Total cost including Vat and packing was £50. (bargain, as I will not worry if that bolt on no 3 was tight or had it started to crack when I am out in a blow) ”

So, once again many thanks to all for your help and various links. If I ever gets this engine going, I will video it and put it on You Tube !!!!!! (I really am getting a sad old man)

John

 

[Bilgediver]

I really am getting a sad old man)

John

Join the club and enjoy the recon engine!

 

[mil1194]

Believe it or not, I have got the TTY bolts on order from of all places,… Ford. I got them from www.Fordpartsuk.com via their Contact us form. I had tried the local main Ford Dealers but was given the brush off and given to understand that Ford were no longer stocking items for these old engines.

The guy that answered my request for spares emailed me at just after Sunday midnight to confirm some details and I had a formal quote by 0400 this morning for Big End, Main Bearing and Flywheel Bolts. Total cost including Vat and packing was £50. (bargain, as I will not worry if that bolt on no 3 was tight or had it started to crack when I am out in a blow) ”

So, once again many thanks to all for your help and various links. If I ever gets this engine going, I will video it and put it on You Tube !!!!!! (I really am getting a sad old man)

John

Not meaning to be pedantic - but I don't think you did order them from Ford.....

 

[Jcorstorphine]

You are right.

Not meaning to be pedantic - but I don't think you did order them from Ford.....

You are “pedantically” right. I did notice that as I was paying for the items the name Foray came up so went back onto their website today and took a closer look.

They are part of the Foray Motor Group and have an obsolete part location system that can source those parts not available at your local Ford dealer. They also utilise the Edix Ford European search engine that sources Ford parts across Europe and run 24/7.

It all seemed to work as I have confirmation of my order and am just waiting delivery.

I have to confess, the website did give the impression that it was Ford direct. I probably should have been more observant but I was so pleased to locate someone who could actually find the parts.

 

[mil1194]

I was just in picky picky mood thats all - had had a guts full of 'clients' ringing up for advice while they actually knew it all already.......