Helming & sheeting

[Rob_Webb]

My NZ boat-hunting saga is becoming farcical but I reckon might finally be homing in on a a rather lovely 35ft fast cruiser with a wonderfully spacious cockpit and feather light wheel. My only concern is that it will be the first boat I own where the mainsheet traveller is mounted on the coahroof and the mainsheet runs along the boom and back down to one of the jammers on the cabin top - whereas I've been used to it being within arms reach of the helm position. So as I see it the helmsan will become jibsheet trimmer (the primaries are within reach) and the crew will become mainsheet trimmer, which is a reversal of roles that I'm used to.

Is this the norm with modern cruisers and will I acclimatise to it quickly? Or will I end up looking for a sneaky way to re-run the mainsheet back to a spot where I can trim it from the wheel and give the jib back to my crew?

R

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[tome]

Rob

I have this arrangement on a 37ft boat and can sail single handed using the autopilot to maintain course whilst I trim. The traveller is mounted on the coachroof ahead of the sprayhood.

One important modification I made was to lead the traveller control lines back to the cockpit to clutches via brass eyes in the sprayhood. This now works fine- previously I had to leave the cockpit to adjust them!

I had similar reservations, but the system is good provided you have a good autopilot.

Tom

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[Twister_Ken]

Nasty modern system, tho' generally one that can be corrected without wasting too many beer vouchers.

But the question is, do you prefer a roomy cockpit unobstructed by traveller and mainsheet, or not?

Or not, in my case, but your mileage may vary.

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[boatless]

Where is the mainsheet track Rob? That assumes it has one, but whether it does or not merely affects the ability to rerig to taste.

As Tome does, I tend to cruise with the pilot on, so I am the trimmer and the sheet position doesn't really matter. In a tight spot you can still take the sheet from the unlocked jammer to a spare winch or cleat by your side.

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[jimi]

one thing I do is leave the mainsheet on a self tailing winch so it can be released in a hurry if need be. When hard on the wind with the jammer on it can be difficult to undo, otherwise fine.

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[Jeremy_W]

It's not a particularly new idea. The first four Morning Clouds (late-60's to mid-70's) all used it. In the late-80's a double-ended mainsheet version was used on Admiral's Cuppers. The two ends of the mainsheet went down at 45-degrees from the gooseneck to blocks by the shrounds then back to winches either side of the cockpit.


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[Robin]

Fear not, ours too has a coachroof mounted traveller with traveller controls and mainsheet taken back to coachroof mounted clutches and winches. As has been said, most of us sail most of the time using the pilot so are probably in the ideal position to be the trimmer! The coachroof mounted traveller is easiest to adjust as a small adjustment makes a big difference to the boom/sail angle so we tend to set the mainsheet and kicker for the right leech tension and then move the main on the traveller barn door fashion. You do need good quality fittings though, we have a Harken traveller car system which runs very smoothly and fitted roller bearing mainsheet blocks so that the mainsheet runs more easily too. A big benefit is the clear cockpit, it makes fitting a bimini and/or cockpit canopy easier too.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Rob_Webb]

Mmmmmm, I'm not 100% convinced. The traveller is on the cochroof just in front of where the sprayhood would be and the mainsheet runs back to good-quality looking jammers and s/t winches. But it's one of those boats that's excellent on condition but short on extras and so I won't (initially anyway) have an autopilot. I will have to try it but as Ken alludes, my instinct is that whilst good in theory the arrangement goes too far in favour of cockpit 'comfort' at the expense of sailing reqs. If I'm short-handed, for instance, I could imagine a scenario in a big gust where I want to be dumping the main (in a controlled manner) whilst also manning the wheel. I just can't see how this would work under the present arrangement. I think that I might find it hard to ignore the instinct to run the mainsheet back to a winch within arms reach of the helm!



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[Aja]

Quite surprised about the number of people admitting to sailing by autopilot. Where's the fun in that?

Why not switch the engine on and be done with it. No. Wait. Why not but a motorboat!

Only sailed one boat with a traveller in front of the sprayhood. No use for trimming in gusts and very heavy to sheet in. Can't quite see why a boat below 40' should need a winch for a mainsheet.

No. For me I would put the traveller where it belongs - in a safe place in the cockpit where the mainsheet belongs and take away all these blocks, clutches and winches.

Unless of course you really need the space in the cockpit?

Donald

Donald

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[boatless]

'Cos when I'm cruising the pilot steers pretty well, and since I'm the only one interested in speed I can be trimming my heart out. While the kids read etc...

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[Robin]

Boats above a certain size will not normally need to be sailed like a dinghy, mainsheet in hand ready to dump. If the sails are set up properly for relaxed cruising when short handed, ie area matched to the gusts rather than the lulls, then the mainsheet dump should not be needed, if racing and/or with a full crew then it is different.

What has the engine got to do with sailing by autopilot? Autopilots have revolutionised cruising short handed, now you can navigate, eat, smell the breeze and ENJOY helming when you wish and for as long as you wish and trim sails letting the pilot steer if you wish too.

Cockpit travellers have disadvantages too, like their finger amputating capabilities especially with those fitted just outside the mainhatch/bridgedeck or on some mounted behind the helmsman with decapitation possibilities in an uncontrolled gybe! I once brought a Westerly Sealord back from Cherbourg to Lymington in a downwind gale, standing at the wheel was quite worrying when the boom moved in the swell despite having a hefty preventer line rigged and I could feel the closeness of the mainsheet going diagonally across me just behind my neck! That boat didn't have an autopilot either and it was a very long trip stood behind the wheel with a crew of seasick beginners retching in the cockpit whilst ducking every time the boom 'quivered' at the bottom of a swell.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Ships_Cat]

Our traveller is in front of the dodger and I support everything that Robin says as is all total good sense for cruising as opposed to just local jaunts. We do not use a jammer though but the sheet is normally on a self tailing winch as Jimi says but lightly cleated if we need the winch for the vang which is on a jammer. Also, we do have an autopilot.

In a bigger short crewed cruising boat having the traveller in the cockpit is a dangerous liability, in my opinion. OK in race boats or in smaller boats but in larger ones if you get caught in the sheet or traveller it becomes serious. We specified our boat with traveller outside of the cockpit and standing room for most under the boom in the cockpit - I have a friend who had a serious accident and the most common injury accident I have heard is crew in in a panic seeking medical attention because they have a crew member lying unconcious and bleeding on the floor of the cockpit (once on ssb back to NZ from Polynesia, and they were in a real panic spending a long period receiving advice from a NZ hospital).

The only cockpit sheeted arrangment I like is when there is a single part sheet taken from a padeye in the cockpit floor and the boom is vang sheeted so no traveller at all and no sheet parts to get caught in.

As Robin says we do not sail the boat like a dinghy, and when faced with big excursions of wind speed so that sailing reefed for the gusts is not economic, as we often find around here, we luff up to depower the sail as we have full length battens (like an IACC boat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif). That might not be so effective in a lighter boat though if any seas, especially if broad sectioned forward.

Sounds like a good over a beer subject - will phone you sometime Monday, trying to aim for Tuesday late afternoon as definitely tied up Monday evening.

Regards

John

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[Robin]

Miaow John

Althoughour mainsheet is held in a clutch it is easily released without needing to put it on the winch first except when it is sheeted in to maximum load, however we don't use the mainsheet to adjust the mainsail trim that much. Once the leech tension is set with the kicker and mainsheet, the mainsail is adjusted by moving it on the coachroof traveller which being well forward allows a lot of movement, the traveller has a multipart purchase on the car and the clutch can always be released by hand, no need for the winch. We can depower the fully battened main quite nicely on the traveller alone without all the crashing and banging that releasing the mainsheet on a short battened main generates.

We actually have 14 clutches to the 2 coachroof winches!! This is because we are set up to be able to reef both headsail and mainsail (2 line system) entirely from the safety of the cockpit, though 2 of the clutches are for the sheets for staysail or storm jib which set on a separate cutter stay.

Purrrrr

Robin

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Oldhand]

I agree. The moment the autopilot, if fitted, is least likely to be able to handle quickly enough, the onset of a big gust, is the time you most need to be able to very quickly reach the traveller or mainsheet controls or both. I wouldn'd and have never had a boat where the helmsperson can't reach the mainsheet for immediate release. There are thus many modern boats I wouldn't consider sailing, far less owning.

I believe you are correct to be concerned Rob and should look and see if the boat can be modified to have a cockpit mainsheet track and controls.

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[Rob_Webb]

Thanks, John, definitely good beer-chat material. I presume you are in Auckland right now (Mon am)? I'll keep tomorrow (Tue) eve free for a beer and a meal if you are free. My office is by the viaduct harbour so lots of options for scoff and beer and we can even look at the boats whilst we spin yarns! Look forward to meeting you at last!

Rob

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[Rob_Webb]

Thanks everyone

Cheers for the feedback guys. Seems that opinion is pretty evenly divided between it being a safe, workable option or a nasty modern disease! It sounds like the ideal solution would be to keep the traveller up top out of the way of the cockpit but with the mainsheet routed in such a way to allow easy adjustment from the helm position. Just not sure if it would introduce so much mechanical drag that it would become unworkable?

But specifically picking up Robin and Ship's Cat points, granted we ae not talking about dinghies here but sometime in a vicious gust (and we get a lot in Auckland) you do need to be dinghy-responsive to de-power the main. And the key point is that it isn't a cpasize you are afraid of but rounding up - there are occassions (mainly due to Solent-style traffic) where you might not have the sea room for a indulgent great rounding luff and you really need to maintain course whilst dumping the main - I guess I'll just have to be extra vigilant to these situations work out the best solution based on the specific characteristic of the boat (when I finally get alfoat).



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[Robin]

Re: Thanks everyone

I understand where you are coming from but think you may find it less of a problem than imagined. Also remember that the mainsheet is NOT the one which now has the most control over the mainsail power, the TRAVELLER lines do, strictly the windward traveller line. The mainsheet now is now like a centre mainsheet on a dinghy, it may be located on the boom very close to the kicker and it certainly applies load on the boom/leech load on the sail in the same way as does the kicker. The traveller is what positions the sail for the correct angle to the wind, it is perfectly possible to have the traveller well upwind of centre with a looser mainsheet & kicker (light airs upwind) or let right off with a very tight mainsheet & kicker (stronger winds upwind). In gusty conditions set the traveller down with a hardened mainsheet - any tendency to round up and the main will quickly backwind and control is restored. Otherwise be aware that the TRAVELLER line is the one to release in extremis, we have a 400sq ft main and a Harken car system with multiple purchase and 2 lines to cockpit clutches and have never needed to put the lines on a winch either to adjust the traveller or to release the clutch under load, a cheaper system may need winch assist though. Don't forget the autopilot either, one button pressed and you can be at the traveller clutch in a few moments!



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[chippie]

Re: Thanks everyone

Rob, as a matter of interest, what boat are you considering?

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[Rob_Webb]

Re: Thanks everyone

It's a Lidgard 35 - apparently only 3 in NZ, just come on the market. Sea trial booked for next weekend, survey thereafter and hopefully with a following wind she could be in my onwership by early October (3rd time lucky after 2 false starts with poor surveys and sea trials)!

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[chippie]

Re: Thanks everyone

You will be well set up for summer! Best of luck with the formalities.

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