Helm to Flybridge wire connection colour

[wonkywinch]

Hi Paul sorry your right and I wasn't thinking. So I think that the single brown and single blue be a better option.

I like your sense of humour.

Do you have a wiring diagram? Do any of the cables carry high loads? Before speccing the cable, I'd check what it's supplying. All low volts/low current? Need 7 cores?

7 Core Thin Wall Trailer Cable - 6 x 16.5A (1.0mm²), 1 x 25A (2.0mm²)

You get the idea. Alternatively, why do a job properly when you can easily bodge it? I prefer opportunities like this to correct wrong doings by previous owners.

 

[rogerthebodger]

It's not 5 core it would be 7 core. There are 3 wires at the moment X1 3 core and X2 2 core.

Then use 7 core cable

Oceanflex 7 Core Tinned Thin Wall Cable - 7 x 21A (1.5mm²)

 

[PaulRainbow]

Hi Paul sorry your right and I wasn't thinking. So I think that the single brown and single blue be a better option.

Read post #20 again please.

No mains coloured wires in the DC circuits, that's no brown, blue or green.

See post #12, what are the switches for ?

Is the boat 12v or 24v ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I like your sense of humour.

Do you have a wiring diagram? Do any of the cables carry high loads? Before speccing the cable, I'd check what it's supplying. All low volts/low current? Need 7 cores?

7 Core Thin Wall Trailer Cable - 6 x 16.5A (1.0mm²), 1 x 25A (2.0mm²)

You get the idea. Alternatively, why do a job properly when you can easily bodge it? I prefer opportunities like this to correct wrong doings by previous owners.

Then use 7 core cable

Oceanflex 7 Core Tinned Thin Wall Cable - 7 x 21A (1.5mm²)

The Oceanflex 7 core cable has brown, blue and green cores, should not be using those colours on DC circuits, unless the green is a grounding wire, which in this case it will not be.

 

[jakew009]

The Oceanflex 7 core cable has brown, blue and green cores, should not be using those colours on DC circuits, unless the green is a grounding wire, which in this case it will not be.

Is that necessarily the case? I’d have thought on an old boat (pre 2004) the mains wiring would have as likely been red + black.

 

[Fairlineboat]

I appreciate all the help on this but well try and explain the set up, on the helm are 2 switches and the same on the flybridge. I have 2 wires coming from flybridge to helm which is 3 core. Colour wires blue, brown, green and yellow, Then I have X1 wire which is 2 core connecting from switch to 1 wire connecting to dial. I then have another X1 wire 2 core connecting from switch to another dial wire. This is repeated on the other switch. This is the same setup on the flybridge. I can't see that there is any wiring going to a circuit breaker or fuse box. There is just 2 rocker switches.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I appreciate all the help on this but well try and explain the set up, on the helm are 2 switches and the same on the flybridge. I have 2 wires coming from flybridge to helm which is 3 core. Colour wires blue, brown, green and yellow, Then I have X1 wire which is 2 core connecting from switch to 1 wire connecting to dial. I then have another X1 wire 2 core connecting from switch to another dial wire. This is repeated on the other switch. This is the same setup on the flybridge. I can't see that there is any wiring going to a circuit breaker or fuse box. There is just 2 rocker switches.

And we still have no idea what the switches are for, or if the boat is 12v or 24v.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Is that necessarily the case? I’d have thought on an old boat (pre 2004) the mains wiring would have as likely been red + black.

It might be, it also might be domestic twin and Earth, but why continue using inappropriate wiring, when it costs no more and takes no more time and effort to use the correct, modern, wiring ?

 

[jakew009]

It might be, it also might be domestic twin and Earth, but why continue using inappropriate wiring, when it costs no more and takes no more time and effort to use the correct, modern, wiring ?

I agree with everything you have said in this thread other than perhaps the suggestion not to use blue / brown / green colours for low voltage DC.

Is that something that is common amongst most modern boat manufacturers? My worry is that it almost lulls someone into a false sense of security and then they cut into a bit of yellow artic and get a 230v zap.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Any mains wiring on a boat should be in totally separate conduit/trunking then the DC wiring which should be clearly marked as being mains wiring.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I agree with everything you have said in this thread other than perhaps the suggestion not to use blue / brown / green colours for low voltage DC.

Is that something that is common amongst most modern boat manufacturers? My worry is that it almost lulls someone into a false sense of security and then they cut into a bit of yellow artic and get a 230v zap.

It is, and has been for many years, a requirement for all new build boats in the EU/UK.

ISO 10133 for DC systems dates back to 1994 and states (my bold):

7.8.1 All equipotential bonding conductors shall be identified by green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation, or
may be uninsulated. Conductors with green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation shall not be used for current carrying
conductors.

and:

7.8.3 All d.c. negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped with an
a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) which may use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be
used for d.c. negative conductors of the d.c. system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for d.c. positive
conductors.

and

Craft with a.c and d.c systems should avoid the use of a brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the d.c.
system unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified (see 7.7).

It's really simple to comply with modern standards and to make the colours easily recognizable to the vast majority of people. Keep the AC wiring the same as domestic colours, ie, blue, brown and green/yellow and to avoid their use in DC systems. This also complies with modern standards.

As a footnote, the 7 core Oceanflex cable is unsuitable because it contains green, yellow, brown and blue wires.

 

[jakew009]

It is, and has been for many years, a requirement for all new build boats in the EU/UK.

ISO 10133 for DC systems dates back to 1994 and states (my bold):

7.8.1 All equipotential bonding conductors shall be identified by green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation, or
may be uninsulated. Conductors with green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation shall not be used for current carrying
conductors.

and:

7.8.3 All d.c. negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped with an
a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) which may use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be
used for d.c. negative conductors of the d.c. system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for d.c. positive
conductors.

and

Craft with a.c and d.c systems should avoid the use of a brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the d.c.
system unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified (see 7.7).

It's really simple to comply with modern standards and to make the colours easily recognizable to the vast majority of people. Keep the AC wiring the same as domestic colours, ie, blue, brown and green/yellow and to avoid their use in DC systems. This also complies with modern standards.

As a footnote, the 7 core Oceanflex cable is unsuitable because it contains green, yellow, brown and blue wires.

Thanks, that’s me told.

It’s ironic that none of the engine manufacturers etc pay any attention to it at all with their harnesses, but I guess they would hide behind the ‘unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors’ clause which I guess could be applied to any harness / multi conductor cable.

 

[rogerthebodger]

It is, and has been for many years, a requirement for all new build boats in the EU/UK.

ISO 10133 for DC systems dates back to 1994 and states (my bold):


Craft with a.c and d.c systems should avoid the use of a brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the d.c.
system unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified (see 7.7).


As a footnote, the 7 core Oceanflex cable is unsuitable because it contains green, yellow, brown and blue wires.

Generally agree but your highlighted statement include the word (avoid) it does not outright ban its use.

It would also be interesting to see what 7.7 says

7 core cable that carries signal /DC should never include AC mains if only to reduce / prevent interference

You also say " unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified "

As this cable has an outer sheath and clear used for anything other than AC and the sheathing will identify it as clearly separate from ac conductors.

As I said AC should in in separate conduit / trunking to DC and signal wiring so will comply with the standards you quote

 

[PaulRainbow]

Generally agree but your highlighted statement include the word (avoid) it does not outright ban its use.

It would also be interesting to see what 7.7 says

7 core cable that carries signal /DC should never include AC mains if only to reduce / prevent interference

You also say " unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors and identified "

As this cable has an outer sheath and clear used for anything other than AC and the sheathing will identify it as clearly separate from ac conductors.

As I said AC should in in separate conduit / trunking to DC and signal wiring so will comply with the standards you quote

Typical selective reading.

The 7 core cable you suggested includes a green and a yellow core, see below, or above.

7.8.1 All equipotential bonding conductors shall be identified by green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation, or
may be uninsulated. Conductors with green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation shall not be used for current carrying
conductors.

7.8.3 All d.c. negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped with an
a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) which may use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be
used for d.c. negative conductors of the d.c. system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for d.c. positive
conductors.

It DOES NOT comply with the standards i quoted, if you use the green for current carrying or the yellow for positive (as there is a black, the yellow is pointless.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks, that’s me told.

It’s ironic that none of the engine manufacturers etc pay any attention to it at all with their harnesses, but I guess they would hide behind the ‘unless clearly separated from the a.c. conductors’ clause which I guess could be applied to any harness / multi conductor cable.

Only for certain colours, for instance, green cannot be used to carry current and yellow cannot be used as a DC positive. Much of the wiring in a typical engine harness will have striped wiring anyway.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Typical selective reading.

The 7 core cable you suggested includes a green and a yellow core, see below, or above.


It DOES NOT comply with the standards i quoted, if you use the green for current carrying or the yellow for positive (as there is a black, the yellow is pointless.

No it is not selective reading it's all about reading what is stai correctly.

There is a big difference between avoid and not permitted not permitted means in mt English must not.

You also ignore that blue /brown and green can be used but must be clearly identified.

If you are NOT allowed to use Brown / blue /green you would ne ba allow to use most multi core cable what it means you can use t but the cable must be clearly identified.

You are representing what the stangs say and misleading the the OP and the forum.

Where it says avoid you can use brown /blue /green but with conditions and if the conditions are followed the installation does comply with the standards you quoted.

You may not wish to do it that way but it does mean that your way is the only way.

What does 7.7 of the standards you quote say as it could have other pertinent information

 

[wonkywinch]

As an electronics engineer, I've worked with equipment wired with multicore cable containing perhaps dozens of conductors/colours. I would generally assume that a multicore cable with loads of wires, eg 6+ connected to electronics equipment/gauges would not have 240v present on any of the conductors even if they were brown or red etc.

 

[PaulRainbow]

No it is not selective reading it's all about reading what is stai correctly.

There is a big difference between avoid and not permitted not permitted means in mt English must not.

You also ignore that blue /brown and green can be used but must be clearly identified.

Selective reading and your usual nonsense arguing. How many times must i type the following, Does it help if i use bigger text ?

7.8.1 All equipotential bonding conductors shall be identified by green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation, or
may be uninsulated. Conductors with green, or green with a yellow stripe, insulation shall not be used for current carrying
conductors.
7.8.3 All d.c. negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped with an
a.c. electrical system (see ISO 13297) which may use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be
used for d.c. negative conductors of the d.c. system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for d.c. positive
conductors.
Note the use of shall not

If you are NOT allowed to use Brown / blue /green you would ne ba allow to use most multi core cable what it means you can use t but the cable must be clearly identified.

shall not use green for current carrying.

You are representing what the stangs say and misleading the the OP and the forum.

You are talking nonsense as usual, i am simply quoting the current ISO.

Where it says avoid you can use brown /blue /green but with conditions and if the conditions are followed the installation does comply with the standards you quoted.

One last time, shall not use green for current carrying.

You may not wish to do it that way but it does mean that your way is the only way.

I do things that comply with the ISO and that make sense to sensible people, my name is not paulthebodger

What does 7.7 of the standards you quote say as it could have other pertinent information

I have posted relevant sections of the ISO, without leaving out anything pertinent, to suggest otherwise is questioning my integrity, however:

7.7 A d.c circuit shall not be contained in the same wiring system as an a.c. circuit, unless one of the following
methods of separation is used.
a) For a multicore cable or cord, the cores of the d.c. circuit are separated from the cores of the a.c. circuit by an
earthed metal screen of equivalent current-carrying capacity to that of the largest core in either circuit.
b) The cables are insulated for their system voltage and installed in a separate compartment of a cable ducting or
trunking system.
c) The cables are installed on a tray or ladder where physical separation is provided by a partition.
d) A separate conduit, sheathing or trunking system is used.
e) The d.c and a.c. conductors are fixed directly to a surface and separated by at least 100 mm

Note, these quotes are from an older ISO and the section numbers differ in the current ISO.

 

[PaulRainbow]

As an electronics engineer, I've worked with equipment wired with multicore cable containing perhaps dozens of conductors/colours. I would generally assume that a multicore cable with loads of wires, eg 6+ connected to electronics equipment/gauges would not have 240v present on any of the conductors even if they were brown or red etc.

You are free to assume what you like, but the standards for marine installations differ from that assumption. Industrial/domestic installations/standards are not the same as marine ones.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You can all feel free to wire to wire your boats up using whatever types/colours/sizes of cables you want, makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever.

I shall continue to follow the standards that i have quoted from.

Happy New Year.