Heavy Weather Suvival

A lot of the tactics here are suitable for heavy weather, but survival storms are a different matter; ask veterans of the '79 Fastnet about lying ahull...

Admittedly that wasn't real blue water, but true accounts like 'Once Is Enough' seem to show there is a stage when one has to be active, much as cowering below does appeal ( to me ! ).

Dispersing oil is mentioned in 'Heavy Weather Sailing', and I've seen a small ship which tried it when piling up on Brighton beach ( Athena B, they all got off safely ) but like many I'd personally discount it due to the hazard of the slippery oil coating warps, boat, crew...

If someone can get a windvane to steer accurately enough for survival conditions they should get a dozen Nobel Prizes.

A chap at my sailing club reckoned he'd invented an electronic autopilot which sensed the stern lifting to big seas and applied appropriate rudder, I haven't seem him for years so either it didn't work, or he's sitting on his private island lighting cigars with £1,000 notes; it still wouldn't help in chaotic cross seas though.

Of course any magic robot helmsperson is bound to run out of electricity or pack up when in the worst conditions, until we get fuel cells, nuclear or similar and bullet-proof kit I suppose the 'man & wife crew' will still be talking about drogues etc.

And prayer. ;)
 
Seajet said:
If someone can get a windvane to steer accurately enough for survival conditions they should get a dozen Nobel Prizes.
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Could you expand on that? Not come across that view before. Worst I've been in was 45Kn gusting 50 and the aries worked perfectly, very powerful. Though obviously incapable of any anticipation and that time it was very localised so waves weren't much of a problem.
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VO5 said:
I disagree with you.
When I ventilated the subject properly and proved my point despite persistent pointless argument the thread had nearly 10,000 views.
What I mean is I am not prepared to make the EFFORT to explain all of the principles (proven and adopted by the Australian Coastguard) all over again, thank you very much Conachair.
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Some of us may not have seen your other thread. Could you possibly provide a link for the sake of convenience? Many thanks.
 
Conachair said:
Could you expand on that? Not come across that view before. Worst I've been in was 45Kn gusting 50 and the aries worked perfectly, very powerful. Though obviously incapable of any anticipation and that time it was very localised so waves weren't much of a problem.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head, a windvane can't anticipate irregular waves ( and a human, especially a tired one isn't much better off at night ); OK in gales, but come a F12...
 
Seajet said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head, a windvane can't anticipate irregular waves ( and a human, especially a tired one isn't much better off at night ); OK in gales, but come a F12...
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Well, no way I want to be in the cockpit in a sustained 12. Actually, wouldn't want to be on a boat come to that. Anyway, if you have a drogue on a bridle out back i'm not sure you'll be able to move the boat around enough to make any difference.
 
nigel1 said:
Best place would be down below, washboards well secured, and yourself well wedged in.
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Hmm...have a read of the accounts from survivors of the 1979 Fastnet in 'Heavy Weather Sailing', also ' Left For Dead' etc, and watch this; I think the conclusion " I'd want to get out of here too " is very telling, not meaning to thread drift onto 'liferaft yes or no', but there seems a limit to lying ahull.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273390
 
Conachair said:
Next time I go cruising it will hopefully be with a jsd and something like a galerider or seabrake. No reason not to have options and a backup.
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+1.

Sunrunner came with a drogue of some sort and I will be relying on that until I can get a JSD built. The advantage of single point drogues over series types is they are a lot more compact so carrying one as well does make sense.

Boo2
 
Seajet said:
Hmm...have a read of the accounts from survivors of the 1979 Fastnet in 'Heavy Weather Sailing', also ' Left For Dead' etc, and watch this; I think the conclusion " I'd want to get out of here too " is very telling, not meaning to thread drift onto 'liferaft yes or no', but there seems a limit to lying ahull.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273390
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I was meaning after the JSD had been deployed. I dont think sitting in the cockpit stern to weather in a F12 would be the best place to sit it out.
 
Conachair said:
Well, no way I want to be in the cockpit in a sustained 12. Actually, wouldn't want to be on a boat come to that. Anyway, if you have a drogue on a bridle out back i'm not sure you'll be able to move the boat around enough to make any difference.
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I have not been in a 12.

But I have been in horrendous seas, well out of sight of land in the ocean in Storms, not gales.

North of Bermuda in the tail end of a deep depression on a night with no moon and really angry seas. Huge dark very low ragged clouds scudding really fast overhead.

The wind screaming through the rigging like wailing banshees.

Very deep troughs in long swells with big seas on the crests being blown off and the rain and spray coming across like bullets with loud cracks like rifle shots.

I had to wear a visor because it made my face hurt if I popped my head out of the companionway to have a look, to give you an idea.

The spray dodger ripped at one seam and then trashed altogether. Admittedly it was an old hood and the stitching was tired.

Visibility very poor. The sea had phosphorescence and this created a ghastly glow on the surface that was striped with foam and spindrift where visible during lightning flashes.

It started while there was still light and I had already gone bare poles with a deployed Seabrake. It just built and built with a steadily falling glass all evening and night and was at its worst at 4 am.

Wind speed recorded on my B+G showed gusts with the needle fleetingly going off the dial to give you an idea. When daylight broke the sea was white, but very slowly throughout the day the gusting became intermittent in its ferocity and by evening the sea was still very confused but the B+G now showed a steady 50 to 55 knots.

In these conditions you cannot behave like you would in a gale.
In a gale bare poled and Seabrake deployed tea in the cockpit is possible.
Also the self steering can cope.

In the above conditions the boat has to be fully battened down. Even the ventilators have to be capped. The rudder has to be put midships. I don't mean locked with the brake. I mean tensioned using snubbers.

I am explaining the above because I am not now sure whether this discussion is about moderate boats in Gales or bigger boats in Storms, I mean top nines, bottom tens and so on.

There again the configuration of the boat is a contributory factor. I have a centre cockpit sloop with a very deep cockpit. I would feel very vulnerable in an aft cockpit, and particularly the more modern boats whose cockpits I think are too shallow.
 
Seajet said:
Hmm...have a read of the accounts from survivors of the 1979 Fastnet in 'Heavy Weather Sailing', also ' Left For Dead' etc, and watch this; I think the conclusion " I'd want to get out of here too " is very telling, not meaning to thread drift onto 'liferaft yes or no', but there seems a limit to lying ahull.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273390
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Andy Cassel, of Ratsey and Lapthorn was in that race. He recounted to me his experience over the Labadie Bank. He said the seas were horrific. He told me they were bare poles and streaming warps and still tearing along with bursts of 14 knots down the faces of the waves.:eek:
 
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Sea Brake

I have revisited VO5 posts and looked at Seabrake site.
The Seabrake seems to imply that it can vary the drag according to speed by opening or closing. Is that correct and can VO5 explain in more detail.
I can see the value of stopping the stern rising in breaking water but how is the Seabrake any different to any other drogue given that it has chain to hold it down in deep water which any other drogue might be set up to do. Is this function of stopping the stern rising related or dependent on the length of the drogue line.
ie a short (deep) line would I imagine stop the stern rising while a long line might allow the stern to rise more. Interested in any further comments from VO5 about how it works and why.
(No I am not experienced in heavy weather sailing and don't ever expect to be) olewill
 
I have revisited VO5 posts and looked at Seabrake site.

#The Seabrake site explains the principle very well but I think not in enough detail.The Seabrake seems to imply that it can vary the drag according to speed by opening or closing. Is that correct and can VO5 explain in more detail.

#You have the right idea but you are not explaining it correctly.
The drag does not increase if the speed is increased. The drag effect increases because an increase in pull as a consequence of an increase in speed causes more water to rush through it more quickly swelling it. When it is swollen its drag effect is further enhanced.

Let's explore this idea further...

If you drag a galvanised bucket, say, the bucket does not swell. Therefore (excluding tugs and jerks) the pull is nearly constant.

If the bucket had some holes punched in the bottom, the rate of flow into the baucket and out of it would change, but the pull would not significantly change from nearly constant BECAUSE the bucket is rigid.

If you pull an ordinary coned shaped drogue (or even a multiple of them) the pressure of the water would keep it filled (and the water would escape through the end of the cone), not unlike the arrangement of the holes in the bucket.

But in both cases the exits are static. The exits can only allow a certain amount of water to squeeze out through the holes and no more. The holes do not adjust themselves.

Now compare a jellyfish and a squid making progress unerwater...
The jellyfish plods along...but the squid can put on bursts of speed because its jet propulsion "system" adjusts not only because the exit adjusts but also because it flexes its mantle. Then a combination of adjustable exit and adjustable mantle combine to create £adjustment£ and hence progress, which is the opposoite of drag.

Now turn this on its head.

Suppose the effect of drag could be adjusted by avoiding a fixed ability and replacing it with a self adjusting ability, then, when needed, the effect of drag could be increased or decreased, yes ?...well, that is what the Seabrake is able to do..

More in a few minutes, I am being called...
I can see the value of stopping the stern rising in breaking water but how is the Seabrake any different to any other drogue given that it has chain to hold it down in deep water which any other drogue might be set up to do. Is this function of stopping the stern rising related or dependent on the length of the drogue line.
ie a short (deep) line would I imagine stop the stern rising while a long line might allow the stern to rise more. Interested in any further comments from VO5 about how it works and why.
(No I am not experienced in heavy weather sailing and don't ever expect to be) olewill
 
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Supposing (for argument's sake and to illustrate the idea) in theory you were able to grab the jellyfish by a tentacle to drag it backwards through the water....what would the creature do ?...it would struggle, we suppose...but it would struggle FEEBLY.

Now suppose we were able to repeat this excecise with the squid..it would struggle...but its struggle would be VIGPROUS, because if its ability to exert extra resistance when needed.

The Seabrake operates on very similar principles.

It is not a bucket or a cone. It is like two lampshades, placed one behind the other. The slots between allow the accumulated extra water collected when extra pull is exerted to squirt out radially as the whole rig is swollen. Some goes out of the open end of the smaller "lampshade" at the end and the great majority is dispersed radially.

This radial dispersal additionally creates resistance causing enhanced braking that would otherwise not take place (like the squid struggling to squirt off out of yuor grip of its tentacle):eek:

Therefore, the Seabrake swells and creates breaking action when extra pull is exerted.

This is a very important innovation.....

When a boat in a following sea has a swell with a breaking wave on top of it catch up with it, it lifts it , doesn;t it ?

This lifting causes extra pull on the Seabrake. The seabrake holds the boat on the crest and at the same time, because of this extra pull holds its stern down.

The crest that follows gets under the boat and the boat begins to tip into the trough. As it does so, its speed increases. As the speed increases, the pull exerted is increased. This causes the extra braking on the Seabrake. This extra braking preserves directional stability, The boat is now in the trough. As the boat has ridden down the face of the wave with its stern down (and the bow up), the bow does not plunge into the trough at all when it hits the bottom of the trough.

As the cycle is repeated time and time again, the boat begins to synchronise (which Is my first hand experience) with the swell action that underpins the direction of travel.

Now the boat begins to setlle in the troughs, instead of being bucked about on the crests, and its movement becomes calmer and quieter as the roaring wind hits the cross trees and the rigging and less the decks which now become intermittently sheltered for longer periods.

Then recovery is easy and takes less than 10 mins (for a 140 ft line + ten feet of chain + Seabrake) BECAUSE the line goes on a self tailing winch without dfficulty. There are no spaced impediments to imkpede its recovery.

As winching is not fast, recovery is easy.

If the winching were very rapid then the Seabrake would swell up on its way to the surface and recovery would be difficult.

One has to remember that the boat is towing the Seabrake and not the Seabrake towing the boat, so the effort involves pulling a contraption full of water and not towing a 13 ton boat backwards.

About the chain:~

The manufacturer has a set table of chain sizes and lengths appropriate for different boat lengths. This is the result of very detailed research having been done by them on the subject.

I err on the side of caution, always.

I have a ten foot 5 / 16" chain as a sinker, as recommended by the manufacturer.

It causes the seabrake to sink quite deep. The line curves down in about 15 or 20 degrees from the stern.

However,,,If I feel that the seas followng are going ( and the wind) to be greater than expected I have an extra four feet of the same chain ( in two two foot lengths as an additional reserve) that I might add by shackling to the swivel.

The idea is to slow down the boat and to stop it from careering out of control in front of a following sea.

As the swell action combined with wave tops is invariably large, this action alone takes all the slack out of the line, so when on top of the crest the line is really taut, holding its stern down ang guaranteeing a smooth progression down the face and the maintenance of directional stability. In the trough it slackens. The rig sinks a little deeper to get an even better grip in readiness for the naext lift and decline.

I do not use a recovery line.

The Seabrake does not spin. It tracks evenly and that's it.

I hope and expect this satisfies your questions, and if not, please feel free to ask.
 
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>Worst I've been in was 45Kn gusting 50 and the aries worked perfectly

We used our Hydrovane in 50 knots and had no problems, so I expect it could take a fair bit more. With modern weather routing it's usually possible to avoid very bad weather. We got caught out over Biscay when the forecast was 6 to 7 but increased condsiderably. We were off the thousand fathom line so quite safe.

To put that in context 50 knots is about the middle of a strong gale. To quote the Beaufort scale: Waves 23–32 ft. High waves whose crests sometimes roll over. Dense foam is blown along wind direction. Large amounts of airborne spray may begin to reduce visibility.

The waves are really stunning.
 
KellysEye said:
To put that in context 50 knots is about the middle of a strong gale.
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Gusting 50 in blazing sunshine in the wind acc zone between Tenerife and Gran Canaria wearing nothing more than a pair of shorts is the middle of a whole lot of fun :D:D:D
If you want a bit of practice in strong winds the Canaries are hard to beat.

Wind force goes down one when it's sunny and you know it will be flat calm again with a beer in hand within a couple of hours. ;)

tenerwind.jpg
 
>Gusting 50 in blazing sunshine in the wind acc zone between Tenerife and Gran Canaria wearing nothing more than a pair of shorts is the middle of a whole lot of fun
If you want a bit of practice in strong winds the Canaries are hard to beat.

Yes that's true. Two other good one are the Beqiua channel between Bequia and St Vincent and the north end of Grenada. The Venezuelan and Columbian coasts can be good too, between the Greek islands can also be fun.
 
Part 1.

As I have recieved three PMs from members further enquiring about chain particulars with regard to calibre, length, etc., I have decide to post an explanation in the hope and expectation everyone else can benefit.

When you look carefully at footage of surfers on surfboards surfing big waves you will notice a posture common to all of them.

These surfers will balance the surfboard so that the bow points slightly upwards.

When they surf down the face of the wave you will observe that the stern of the surfboard is embedded in the water behind it and the bow is clear. The surfboard itself is not perfectly horizontal, it has an element of tilt. This element of tilt allows the surfer to guide the board left or right by shifting the weight on one foot or the other. These two factors comprise the main element that underpins the execution of directional stability.

The surfer uses his ability to go left or right in order, for as long as possible, to maximise remaining in the curl of a breaking wave in shallowing water and at the same time avoiding avoiding being overwhelmed and rolled over.

This is because in shallowing depths, bunching occurs.

This bunching causes the waves to curl over, become unstable, and eventually collapse.

In the open ocean this bunching does not occur so markedly, owing to the effect of fetch, which is the opposite of shallowing.

In very rough seas in storm conditions the tops of the waves foam as they develop on top of long swells and these tops are blown off by the wind.

That is why wave action in the open ocean is very different to wave action in the proximity to land and where shallowing occurs.

Having explained that, the object of the excercise in keeping the STERN DOWN replicates the tactic of the surfer.
 
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