Heavy Weather Suvival

[rotrax]

I agree with you.
Interesting post you have made, and it introduces a dimension I had not spotted before now in this thread, which is the "proposal" / "idea" of beating into a storm.
I presume the idea is to beat into the centre of the storm (where theoretically the sea might be calmer and the wind less).
That might be a workable idea if it were practically possible.
But even if it were practically possible then there is the rest of the action to arrive (unless it is a line squall and not a real storm, since real storms are caused byvery deep depressions moving across quickly). So I don't quite understand what benefit there would be in trying to do this except delay the inevitable arrival of the second leg.
Surely as a matter of practical choice one would seek to get it over with quickly rather than seek out a double whammy ?
For this reason running with it is the practical and sensible option to allow it to pass over, (because invariably the storm advances at a faster rate than the speed of the boat through the water so as not to stress the boat, and so as not to seek complications that can be avoided.
The main consideration ought to be to maintain directional stability above all else, because if directional stability is lost, then broaching becomes a very real risk, and to be avoided at all costs.

I always had it clear that tactics change as the weather worsens,hence the order of methods I posted earlier. In the early stages it may well be prudent to keep the head on to the waves by using storm sails and making headway. The trawlermans "dodging" is a well known tactic and recomended by Tom Cunliffe in heavy weather cruising, follwed by running if enough sea room and then lying ahull. Sea anchors and drouges are loved by some and hated by others. I know the loads put on the vessel are huge-good cleats and warp is a must. I must confess to having little experience of serious storms so all my knowledge has been gleaned from books. If I am tested I can only hope to do the best for the boat and crew and to come through safe.

 

[VO5]

I always had it clear that tactics change as the weather worsens,hence the order of methods I posted earlier.

#Yes, OK.

In the early stages it may well be prudent to keep the head on to the waves by using storm sails and making headway.

#Only if you can, but there will be a point at which you can not.

The trawlermans "dodging" is a well known tactic

#Yes, but the trawlermen do not go out under sail.
Their vessels have powerful engines that drive not insignificant propellers to punch along and pull nets as well.

and recomended by Tom Cunliffe in heavy weather cruising,

#Yes, if your boat has the driving pwer to do so.

follwed by running if enough sea room and then lying ahull.

#Yes because a sea in fury cannot be contradicted. All the videos you see on Youtube, for example of big ships battling big seas have one feature in common : they are all filmed going head to sea, instead of stern to sea.
Don't take my word for it, verify it for your own satisfaction.

Sea anchors and drouges are loved by some and hated by others. I know the loads put on the vessel are huge-good cleats and warp is a must.

#Not every yacht built is designed to sail in heavy seas. Those that are invariably are brutally overbuilt, to Lloyds Supervision, etc.,

I must confess to having little experience of serious storms so all my knowledge has been gleaned from books.

#For my sins, I have the experience.

And here in the Straits of Gibraltar because the Atlantic funnels in from the west, because of combinations of Tidal Flow, Current, Shallowing, Narrowing, and Strong Winds, in winter mostly we get seas to frighten Neptune himself.

Yet, despite repeated attempts to set out the facts (because one feels guilty at having knowledge that can save lives but not sharing it) all one gets on these boards is nit picking and silly contradiction from people who would benefit and allowing others to benefit from real experience rather than theories put forward in books and magazines.

If I am tested I can only hope to do the best for the boat and crew and to come through safe.

#My advice to you is to seek out what I have adopted.
What I have adopted is a methodology tested by the Australian Navy and the Australian Coastguard and adopted by them, and tested in the Bass Strait and in the Southern Ocean, in monstrous seas with recorded heights of 80 foot waves.

 

[Babylon]

I disagree with you.
When I ventilated the subject properly and proved my point despite persistent pointless argument the thread had nearly 10,000 views.
What I mean is I am not prepared to make the EFFORT to explain all of the principles (proven and adopted by the Australian Coastguard) all over again, thank you very much Conachair.

VO5

I'm here to learn, as are the overwhelming proportion of people who read these boards but choose to remain silent.

Can you please at least point us towards the relevent thread, which I vaguely recall but which I cannot myself find.

Thanks

 

[Fascadale]

I think this is the thread to which the rather fixated Mr VO5 refers.

As you may see it starts as a discussion on the making of a Jordan Series Drogue but the good Mr 5 repeatedly tries to hijack the thread to discuss the merits of other systems.

Should you have the energy to read the thread you may see the similarities between a certain Mr Smith's behaviour on anchor threads and Mr 5's on drogue threads. Such is Mr 5's devotion to the system he promotes that one is tempted to ask if he has a financial interest: should this not be the case then one is forced to the conclusion that the gentleman has little respect for the opinions of others.

Over the last winter we made one and a half JSDs. The completed one is now in the Azores on its way to the Pacific via the Horn, I plan to finish my one this winter.

 

[alant]

I disagree with you.
When I ventilated the subject properly and proved my point despite persistent pointless argument the thread had nearly 10,000 views.
What I mean is I am not prepared to make the EFFORT to explain all of the principles (proven and adopted by the Australian Coastguard) all over again, thank you very much Conachair.

Which thread was this on pls.
Missed it & want to 'learn' more.

 

[alant]

I always had it clear that tactics change as the weather worsens,hence the order of methods I posted earlier. In the early stages it may well be prudent to keep the head on to the waves by using storm sails and making headway. The trawlermans "dodging" is a well known tactic and recomended by Tom Cunliffe in heavy weather cruising, follwed by running if enough sea room and then lying ahull. Sea anchors and drouges are loved by some and hated by others. I know the loads put on the vessel are huge-good cleats and warp is a must. I must confess to having little experience of serious storms so all my knowledge has been gleaned from books. If I am tested I can only hope to do the best for the boat and crew and to come through safe.

TC has now got an AWB!

 

[Conachair]

A big sea is something completely different, with huge swells and massive overhanging crests and if accompanied by winds above an 8 then spray everywhere going across like bullets with repeated cracking sounds additionally if accompanied by heavy rain. When you experience a big sea you have experienced it and not before.

.......

The requirement is for the provision of directional stability and ease of reteival.

The drogue he uses slows down a boat but does not satisfy the requirements I mention in my previous sentence, nor does it succeed in keeping the stern down, which is a critical component to effectively maintaining directional stability in large following seas as I describe above.

Roget taylors experiences differ substantially from yours. And he has without doubt sailed some stormy seas.

They do seem to be a bitch to retrieve though.

http://thesimplesailor.com/articles.html

It was only on my fourth voyage in Mingming, after close to 12,000 miles of ocean sailing, that I was forced to deploy the JSD. This was in a severe gale off south-west Iceland on July 26th 2009, while returning from the Arctic via the Denmark Strait. Mingming rode to the JSD for 12 hours in survival conditions, and for a further 5 hours under a more conventional sea anchor. The JSD was therefore tested to the limit, not on paper, nor in a university tank, nor in someone's theoretical imaginings, but in the real laboratory of life. My personal survival depended on the proper functioning of the device; it was, literally, a matter of life and death. I also had the opportunity, caused by a silly mistake on my part that lost me the JSD, to compare its performance against that of a large single drogue.

I'm not going to go all of that in too much detail here. That is for the book. However, I do feel that I have earned some right to have an opinion on the efficacity or otherwise of the JSD. It was, in a word, amazing. It was also, literally, sensational; the elastic motion brought on by the JSD was a kind of restrained horizontal bungee-jumping. Once set, the JSD immediately and unfailingly locked Mingming in to a steady attitude to the waves. Yaw was no more than 5 to 10 degrees either way. As Mingming started to carry forward on the more dangerous wave faces the JSD applied the softest of braking power, leaving the waves to pass unthreateningly underneath. At no time did I feel the slightest anxiety. The elastic motion and the creaking as the tension came on to the gear and its attachment points were delightfully soporific.

 

[snooks]

I presume the idea is to beat into the centre of the storm (where theoretically the sea might be calmer and the wind less).
.........
Surely as a matter of practical choice one would seek to get it over with quickly rather than seek out a double whammy ?
For this reason running with it is the practical and sensible option to allow it to pass over,

No, the practice employed was to sail into the wind so the pointy end is facing the rough stuff, not to sail through the eye wall

......

I don't understand how you think sailing with the track of the storm will get you through it quicker? Wind from the west, storm tracking east. Sailing west will reduce your time in the storm, sailing east will increase your time in it.

 

[VO5]

VO5

I'm here to learn, as are the overwhelming proportion of people who read these boards but choose to remain silent.

Can you please at least point us towards the relevent thread, which I vaguely recall but which I cannot myself find.

Thanks

Let me reply to the posters that follow you and then I will come back to you.

 

[westernman]

No, the practice employed was to sail into the wind so the pointy end is facing the rough stuff, not to sail through the eye wall

If the storm is really severe, I just don't see how you can keep the pointy end pointing into wind. There comes a point where you can't do it anymore, where you cannot carry any canvas at all, when heaving too is no longer possible, where you go backwards with the motor at full power (this F9 for my boat and I suspect for many others) and where I would have thought with a sea anchor you would be yawing wildly as you go backwards at several knots........

But I have never experienced more than F9 in my boat, the previous owner spent a F10 hove too - so I am not expecting any particular difficulty until we get up into severe storms or hurricanes.

In winter in the med, we do regularly see winds of over 90 knots and that often inside the marina.

There is the sorry tale of a big cruising catamaran which flipped with the loss of life because the sea anchor was not deployed symmetrically from both hulls down here.

 

[sighmoon]

I don't understand how you think sailing with the track of the storm will get you through it quicker? Wind from the west, storm tracking east. Sailing west will reduce your time in the storm, sailing east will increase your time in it.

It doesn't follow that because the wind is from the West where you are, the whole weather system is tracking East. It's equally likely that the wind is from the West and the storm is tracking West.

 

[VO5]

Roget taylors experiences differ substantially from yours. And he has without doubt sailed some stormy seas.

They do seem to be a bitch to retrieve though. http://thesimplesailor.com/articles.html

Now you are beginning to percieve the flaws at last.

Why do you persist with outdated technology when better solutions are available ?

 

[VO5]

I think this is the thread to which the rather fixated Mr VO5 refers.

I am not fixated. To be fixated is to become rooted in an idea and to ignore ideas that are developed and then rigorously tested and found to be more efficient and safer. The Jordan Series Drogue is outdated. It has been superceded by better technology.

As you may see it starts as a discussion on the making of a Jordan Series Drogue but the good Mr 5 repeatedly tries to hijack the thread to discuss the merits of other systems.

The Jordan Series Drogue, in its time, was a solution offered to slow down a boat in a storm. And it does that. But it does not fulfil another four critical requirements:~

It does not keep the vessel's stern down in a following sea. (broaching is caused by the sea tilting the stern away and altering the direction of the vessel momentarily, leading it to the risk of it being rolled over by the next wave).

Additionally to it not keeping the stern down in a following sea, it does not provide directional stability. It does provide a rudimentary drag which will slow down the boat, but it will not keep it pointing properly for the reason I describe above.

Id does not self adjust. Its pull is permanrent. This is another reason why it does not provide directional stability but just drag. To achieve directional stability the vessel has to be held straight when sliding down the face of a wave, for it to arrive in the trough pointing in the correct direction, so that when it is lifted by the next wave it is stilll pointing correctly and risk of broaching is eliminated. The wave crest has to be made to pass safely under the keel, not across it. Keeping the stern down keeps it pointing backwards correctly and does not allow the wave crest to get under the stern to push the boat askew for it to lose directional stability with the risk of it being rolled over as I describe above.

The restraining pull must be maximum on the slope going down, less on the crest, and then maximum on the slope again. The Jordan Series Drogue just provides even pull and hence directional stability is impaired.

In the previos post you will read a remark about the Jordan Series Drogue being difficult to retrieve.

Why ?

It is difficult to retrieve because winching on it is a pain.

It is a pain because all the funnels are in the way.

Then the only alternative is to bring it inboard by pulling on it hand over hand, which is a nuisance and a waste of physical effort PLUS resulting cuts in the hands.
Should you have the energy to read the thread you may see the similarities between a certain Mr Smith's behaviour on anchor threads and Mr 5's on drogue threads. Such is Mr 5's devotion to the system he promotes that one is tempted to ask if he has a financial interest: should this not be the case then one is forced to the conclusion that the gentleman has little respect for the opinions of others.

These discussions go on because there are persistent posters like you who delight in arguing endlessly and who do not concede that when a better method is developed it ought to be taken advantage of instead of clinging to outmoded and inefficient ideas just because at the time that your hobby horse was developed and given a fanfare by the US Coastguard, the points I detail above had not been considered or indeed the problems associated with them effectively solved.

These problems have nowadays been solved, so why persist with outmoded less efficient technology. It is Luddite behaviour.

I have no financial interest at all.
I am not in trade of any sort either.
Over the last winter we made one and a half JSDs. The completed one is now in the Azores on its way to the Pacific via the Horn, I plan to finish my one this winter.

Exactly, why do we all go back to the lodestone, the hour glass, the backstaff, and oars as well ?

 

[VO5]

No, the practice employed was to sail into the wind so the pointy end is facing the rough stuff, not to sail through the eye wall

......

I don't understand how you think sailing with the track of the storm will get you through it quicker? Wind from the west, storm tracking east. Sailing west will reduce your time in the storm, sailing east will increase your time in it.

You obviously have misunderstood.
The idea is not to point at any rough stuff coming towards you. The idea is to put it behind you and ride with it.
Then because the direction of travel is easterly, the idea is to head east, and go with the storm and not try to fight it. As the storm travels faster than a boat bare poles (or under a handkerchief) and additionally directinally restrained, the storm will pass overhead anyway.
It does not matter if as a consequence you are made to drift backwards from your intended destination a few miles, the object of the excercise is prudent seamanship.

 

[VO5]

It doesn't follow that because the wind is from the West where you are, the whole weather system is tracking East. It's equally likely that the wind is from the West and the storm is tracking West.

AW...alright then...(sigh)...just ride with it...even if the storm is going backwards, in the opposite direction to the flow of the wind...
You will lose ground that is recovered when the bad weather is over.
Some people on this thread are very obstinate, funny.
Why would it matter to be set back a few miles if the safety of your vessel, your crew and yourself were the most important consideration ?

 

[ianj99]

what about the motor?

What role does or can the engine play?
Going astern to prevent surfing?
Keeping it running to prevent the exhaust being swamped and water getting into to?

Robin Knox Johnston in Suhali describes how dragging a very long length of heavy warp from the stern probably saved him many times....

 

[westernman]

What role does or can the engine play?
Going astern to prevent surfing?
Keeping it running to prevent the exhaust being swamped and water getting into to?

Robin Knox Johnston in Suhali describes how dragging a very long length of heavy warp from the stern probably saved him many times....

In the case of a lee shore, it could be your saviour. You might not be able to claw your way off under sail alone - with too much windage there is a point you cannot make way to windward under sail, but with the engine as well, you might be able to.

You may have to reduce sail further so as not to be healing too much for your engine (colling water intake, oil sump etc).

Trailing warps, drogues etc is probably much better when running off than running the engine astern. In the bits where you need it most, the propellor is likely to be out of the water. A long warp, or a series drogue will always be in the water and provide the braking effect when you need it most.

 

[VO5]

Which thread was this on pls.
Missed it & want to 'learn' more.

AS you appear sincere in your quest for knowledge I will explain to you....

THe thread was a discussion with regard to the Jordan Series Drogue.

The Jordan Series Drogue is what most yacghtsmen hear or read about first because it has recieved a lot of publicity, and this publicity has been enhanced by an original US Coastguard report at the time when the rig was first designed and tried.

But that was years ago.

We have moved on.

New effective technology has replaced it.

It is just old hat.

The new technology overcomes problems with regard to directional stability, pull adjustment, ease of deployment, ease of recovery (very important), safety. and other uses, including wandering and roll control at anchor, and other features.

THe Seabrake Drogue, which was researched, designed and developed in Australia was tested in the Bass Strait and in the Southern Ocean, where you get really serious seas that match Cape Horn conditions.

It has been adopted by the Australian Coastguard who operate in these regions, so that in itself speaks for itself, for starters.

THen the Seabrake drogue is not as well known as the Jordan because it is newer and because the US coastguard has not reported on it or tested it as it is not "American"...

Therefore it has not enjoyed the publicity and fanfare given to the Jordan, but it is the bsiness.

I have used it myself in really angry seas in the ocean.

I would never go back to deploying any other method.

I have no commercial interest.

Since this thread is about Heavy Weather Survival and not pond sailing in flat water, I consider I have a duty of care towards fellow yachtsmen in bring to your notice the latest proven safety methodology that supercedes the previous.

Any question please ask.

 

[VO5]

What role does or can the engine play?
Going astern to prevent surfing?
Keeping it running to prevent the exhaust being swamped and water getting into to?

Robin Knox Johnston in Suhali describes how dragging a very long length of heavy warp from the stern probably saved him many times....

AS a footnote to your questions, which have very ably been replied to you by Michael Chapman, I must comment as follows:~

Nowadays we seem to forget that marine engines are fitted to sailing vessels . But the original idea in fitting an engine is to facilkitate manoevering and not to convert a sailing yacht to a mobo with a tall mast. Of course, the engine comes in handy for motor sailing when needed, for charging batteries, pumping, and a myriad of other possibilities. But we seem to conveniently forget or overlook its primary function.

This causes a lot of sailing yachtsmen to rely on the engine too often and too much. Perhaps this over reliance dulls the skills of yesteryear in which the luxury of a reliable and powerful engine did not exist to the extent it does nowadays.

I personally try to use the engine as little as possible and just if possible to enter and leave harbour and to assist in berthing and the opposite.

I was taught that if conditions in a lee shore situation look like getting worse, the immediate prudent idea is if underway, to get an offing quickly by tacking out asap.

If at anchor, and the anchor begins to drag, whether the engine is engaged or not to prepare to do the prudent thing, which, in good time, is to ask for help.

 

[Conachair]

bye bye thread.