Heavy weather .. Lessons Learnt

Oh, you have one of those, too?

200 metres of 25mm nylon.

Carried it around for years; used it once, so far.

Same conclusion as you; series drogue would be better.

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Re: Parachute drogues

Sorry Jimi, I was joking 'bout the motor.

When I say you had the option of turning East or even NE I didn't mean initially when you were mid channel, but later when closer inshore in the unlikely event that you found the seas were too bad to still carry on into Cherbourg.

We have a 5" colour plotter mounted on the coachroof, visible from anywhere in the cockpit and although the screen is to small to study the chart detail from back at the wheel, if switched to the data screen it CAN be read from there. The data screen (which is owner configurable) in our case shows continuously BTW, DTW, COG, SOG, VMG to WP, TTG to WP, Off Track Error. We also have a 10" plotter at the Nav table and a Yeoman plotter, but the ability to see a continuous running position blinking away on the cockpit one whilst outside is very reassuring!

The N going tide coming up from Alderney Race extends about 8 mls N of Cap De La Hague, progressively turning more easterly, and there is a very rough bit just NE of that corner on even a calm day.

When I said we would probably have carried on home (armchair observation) it would have been under sail only, so I hadn't thought of your concern with the motor. We have a very good windward performing boat with a deep fin (2.08m) and can set a heavy weather staysail (or storm jib) on a detachable stay with supporting running backstays. In extremis we also have a separate trysail track fitted. The extra boat size also helps at 41' and I have a hatred of turning back once out, but then often stay in when others leave - stupid or what?

When does Glen Rosa get to go home, this weekend looks crap again albeit from a better direction.



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We've got a top opening freezer - the gas strut operates in such a way as to force the lid down, when it is closed, and hold it up when opened. To be truthful it only has a lift up ring - it would be better if the ring operated a latch to keep it closed.

The fridge has a conventional door, and as it is mounted thwartships we'd have to pitchpole before it opened - and then the food is in baskets that latch in - so they should be OK. We've got the same arangements for washboards - the problem is ORC 3 and above requires them and the companionway hatch to be positevely locked, yet operable from either side, and that is REALLY difficult to achieve.

Dont forget bilge pumps operable from both cockpit and down below. In fact I would suggest that and <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rorc.org/specialregulations/index.php>RORC Special Regulations make a very sensible starting point for anyone going offshore.

I have been scrutineered at ORC 2 (Fastnet and equivalent) + RORC special regs, which is more than many would elect for, but many Solent races are technically ORC 4, even if scrutineering isnt rigorous. Just reading the leaflet concentrates the mind...

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Foul weather gear, boots and lifejacket with harness on in plenty of time. It's amazing how often I get caught out.
Nothing on deck not lashed down (that includes life-rings, I've lost about 4 washed overboard) - spare diesel in cockpit locker.
<<2)Ensure spare diesel can is lashed down>>

Replace furler with solent (up to F7) or working jib on roller gear. that needs doing early rather than later before fore-deck work becomes dangerous.
<<1)Clip on when the FIRST reef goes in (I've got a bit lax there)>> I usually wait until the 2nd reef of 4.

<<3)Monitor position and ground track constantly>> The plotter does that for me, thank goodness, drips on the chart make traditional navigation impossible.

<<4)Ensure washboards are accessible (I'm going to get spares made and keep them downstairs)>> My washboards go in, on lanyards attaching them to the companion way as per ORC regs. Mainhatch closed. If crew on board have to clip on BEFORE coming thro' the hatch.

<<5)Tie on dodgers with bustable string or shock cord>> Mine roll up to the top rail - you'll find nothing will hold a breaking sea.

<<6)Considering an Epirb (what would happen if you did roll?)>> I've both 406 and a personal 121.5 - consider them a MUST-HAVE ahead of a liferaft.

<<7)Think about trailing warps earlier (we did'nt .. apart from a spinnaker sheet)>> I'd think again - only of value when sea-state is 9+ and you're surfing down waves with the real risk of pitchpoling in the next one. Broaching is caused by a) Quartering breaking sea pushing round the stern b) insufficient way to retain steerage control - better to put a little more on the foretriangle and keep steerage way if off the wind. On the wind I use main and motor (which seems OK up to 48 apparent) allowing you to helm round greybeards.

<<8)Method of securing lid of Chart table
9)Method of securing lid of fridge
10)Make sure your oilies are waterproof>>
Go without saying - you need positive catches on all lids.

Additional items:-
1. Batteries securely strapped in - they always come out and cause mayhem in a genuine B3 - I know of at least 2 boats lost because of this (1 was a Swan 46).
2. Auto bilge pumps - I've 3 on my boat and they always are on in knockdown weather.
3. Anchor(s) lashed down, strap over chain in locker.
4. Have a drogue on chain ready to deploy - warps are very hit-and-miss. The RNLI one is best. Also of value for steerage when/if the rudder blade gives up.
5. Boltcroppers handy - 65% probability if you do B3 the mast will go and need cutting away.
6. Get into deep water (100m+), it's the reduction in period due to shallowing water that makes waves really dangerous.
7. 20-30 minutes is as long as the helmsman can do a decent job, so you need plenty of reliefs - watch out for broken fingers and cracked ribs, breakers coming aboard will take you off your feet.

One advantage of really heavy winds is that the seas tend to be flattened - the real danger comes when the wind starts to drop and the seas to break.

I'm prone to being seasick - I've found the remedies of little use - so dehydration is a potential problem - have a litre of fizzy drink stowed in the cockpit, which I find better than water. Nothing worse than trying projectile vomiting on an empty stomach. If you can keep warm and rested sea-sickness is more easily avoided.
I did once, off Cape Cornwall, heave-to, inform Falmouth CG of my position, and got my head down for 50 minutes, which transformed the situation.
Regarding heavy weather - conventional forecasts tend to be too broad brush to be of much value when you're in it - the UK CG are great and French CROSS quite good, for giving the micro-weather.
If near shipping lanes watch out for the effect of wakes from large vessels - you can get some extraordinary breakers from them.

Of course the irony of it all is that, as a sailing vessel, you're looking for a depression and its winds, so every so often you're going to get it wrong and get a pasting. One solace is that it usually only lasts about 6 hours and, providing you can maintain your rhumb, you can carry on and finish the passage. Time constraints make for dangerous sailing, the first rule is to coddle the crew - they'll come apart long before the boat, the second to survive without losing ground.


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Re: Hmmm .... disagree.

I've been in absolutley humungous seas about 8 to 10 miles off Cap Levi. when we were coming back to Jersey. It wasn't even that windy - ok 35 knots, but in a big solid well found boat it wasn't too testing. I then noticed that as we punched through waves we had white water over the foredeck - and then some as the winches and granny bars disappeared under water. Thing is the winches on the mast are a good 10 feet above the waterline. After an hour or two we had punched through (double reefed main, staysail only, and engine on tickover), and the seas flattened off.

Again this year coming back to Jersey, just at the top of the Alderney race we had some HUGE seas runnin (and that was wind with tide). One reef, full jib 12 knots on a broad reach, and seas that were higher than the deck house - say 15 feet or more. We observed that it was just as well it was pitch dark, as it would have been a mite disconcerting in daylight. This time we werent punching into them and we barely even got water on deck, but if we had been forced to go up wind it would have been grotty.

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Re: Parachute drogues

Interesting - most of the published info suggests they can be useful in the early part of a storm but:-

a) you need to have only enough warp out to coincide with drogue in 3rd crest from boat, which means you have to be on deck to "tune" the warp length.
b) nylon, due to hysterisis heating, drops to about 65% of its breaking load.
c) chafe is a major problem

However in the rundown from peak wind speeds they become a major embarassment, how do you then take them in. Most people just cut them free.

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Charles just to clarify about the diesel.
It was in the locker but unsecured. When knocked down the top of the diesel can hit the lid of the cockpit locker cracking the cap and enabling a small amount of diesel to run down the locker lid into the cockpit. I meant ensuring that the diesel can was lashed down within the locker.

<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
 
Horses and All That!

I have just read this post and your previous posts and the only comment I can make is that all boat behave differently in different wind/wave systems. What is right for one may not be right for another but IMHO you are all still here and the boats still afloat, so whatever you did it was the right thing to do for you, your crew and your boat.

After the 97 2 handed race to Iceland we set off back in almost no wind at all. For the first couple of days we headed towards Scotland to try and pick up a Navtex or radio weather report.

Wind kicked in from the north and blew btw 8 and 9 for 4 days and we turned South to run down the West Coast of ireland.

After a day the waves were the biggest I have ever seen or would ever want to see again. They simply towered over us and it was bloody scarey espec as we couldn't sleep properly and after a while fatigue set in. All we had up was a Parker and Kay spectra bullet proof no 3 built for single handed racing and we frequently surfed at 12 - 14 knots which in a 35ft boat isn't bad. We caught a few wrong un's up the arse which delaminated the rudder tube from the hull, so that every time the transom sank half a gall squirted btw the joint and every couple of hours we had to bail out x number of gallons. We covered 700 miles in three days before we reached Dingle and bearing in mind we only had passage charts Dingle was about quarter of an inch wide on the chart.

We turned to wind (which at the time blew 45 knots) under engine. dropped the 3 and hoisted the 4 which was a pretty wet experience. With the four we reached when we could and headed up into the waves when we had to and for a while it was touch and go.

Anyhow we got into Dingle which was akin to paradise and having radio'd ahead we were met by a Captain birds eye character called Jimi.
Such a startling change of attitude from the Solent.
We explained that we didn't have any punts till we got to the bank.
He could see that we had been hammered and he simply told us not to worry and with a big smile handed us two punts of his own money so that we could have a shower! (I have the fondest regard and respect for that guy). (course we could have stunk and he was worried about the tourists)

Anyhow for me, my boat and those wind/sea states we did the right thing by running and surfing. A heavier boat that couldn't plane so easily couldn't have done that so it's horses for courses.

Flying a para from the stern...................naa! The sea would smash the transom to bits. Sea anchor from the bow! Well maybe as a last resort.

Wind blowing 40 knots running off at 10 means it's only 30 knots apparent. Less stress on the boat, less stress on the crew. However I would add that I would never ever ever sail off down wind in those conditions just with the mainsail. In fact, I prob wouldn't have any of it up at all and the boom would be lashed down.

Jimi.............'well done' to you and your crew. I am sure it was pretty unpleasant for you all!

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In fairness

to parachute drogues.

The informed opinion amd supporting facts strongly suggest they are of considerable value in the growth part of a storm - here I'm not talking of a F8, when it's still possible to work to windward, but F9 and above.
The ones I have seen are easy to deploy, being in a turtle and on a bridle which is taken back to the sheet winches, allowing you to "angle" the boat to the wave crests.

They allow one, in these early stages, to rest the crew and those who have used them confirm the motion is easy (in an ocean) and there are very few shocks to the boat.

They do need to be 3 wave-trains away from the boat and synchronised so boat and parachute are at the top of their respective wave at the same time.
Arranging this can be challenging and is the 1st contra the device.

The second is that nylon, unexpectedly, is very prone to hysterisis heating when wet and the average reduction in breaking load is 35%. Increasing the size of rope is subject to the laws of diminishing returns - you lose elasticity and the greater cross-sectional area increases the rise in temperature.

As the wind starts to die, the wave action becomes more irregular and the tripping action more traumatic - at this point you want to be rid of the damn thing and the only way of doing that is to cut it away - quite difficult and dangerous when you have the two bridle ropes to cut simultaneously.
the 3rd contra.

It will only work effectively on one type of underwater configuration. Essentially if your boat lies comfortably and snugly head to wind when at anchor its OK - and that is probably a long keel and hung rudder design.
Which rules out most modern boats, especially those with an unsupported spade rudder - far too much risk of damage.

Finally whilst really useful in deep water with long regular waves it becomes far less valuable in short-period waves.
So for most of us, who sail around on continental shelves in modern light displacement boats, a parachute drogue is of only academic interest - not the answer to all prayers the Pardeys would have us believe.



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I suggest you

have a look at Jim Dashew's "Surviving the Storm" for the most objective and balanced summary on these matters which could possibly cause you to revise both these opinions:

"Surviving the Storm: Coastal & Offshore Tactics is filled with the most spectacular collection of heavy weather photographs ever assembled. 560 photos and illustrations will help you to understand the right and wrong way to deal with breaking seas, heaving to, working your way to windward, running before the storm and the use of drogues or para anchors.
The emphasis throughout this book is on survival storms because, if you are prepared for the worst, normal gales and storms are no longer something to be feared - they become a chance to experiment, to test what works best on your boat.
Surviving the Storm will change your definition of heavy weather. All of your cruising, even the majority which takes place in pleasant weather, will benefit. Passages will be faster and more relaxed. You and your crew will feel more comfortable with the elements. To a substantial degree, those nagging "what if?" doubts will be erased."


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No keep moving

most boats don't take kindly to being pooped.

Heavy weather running is a balancing act between going fast enough to steer and avoid the crests and slowing sufficiently to avoid surfing off the top of one wave into the arse of the one in front.

I suspect you were more in confused than heavy seas.

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Tome\'s frig and Para-Anchors

Too many posts to link back -

Frig Lids

Tome this is not a very tidy way to get frig and freezer lids to stay in place but as we periodically have stuff fly across the galley and our lids are heavy I decided some action was necessary. For each lid I cut 2 toggles, about 30 mm long x 12 mm wide out of a polyethylene kitchen cutting board (about 5 or 6 mm thick) for each lid. I screwed each one at one end to the bench top with a large screw beside the lid, with a washer under the toggle and one under the screw head so that the toggle could be rotated over the lid to hold it down - the 2 toggles opposite each other. It has the disadvantage that you end up with the toggles sticking above the bench top but we have not found it to be too much of a problem at all - and even though we use china plates, etc we have not chipped anything on the screw heads. Has the advantage that they are always there and no special effort is required to use them.

Para-anchors

I had wondered about the usefulness of these so bought a copy of the Pardeys Storm Tactics DVD where all is revealed with demonstrations. Sorry, put me off them for life. In any conditions where a bigger boat might find them useful, unless one had a strongly crewed boat, I would consider the danger from the chances of going over the side deploying it or recovering it would far outweigh any added safety to the boat by using one. Smaller vessels - say under 30 foot as the Pardeys are - may be of some merit.

John

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Re: Tome\'s frig and Para-Anchors

met a couple on a prout 37 who had used a para anchor in a 70 knot wind off the north coast of spain. they had no problem deploying the anchor from the bows when they found that their engine simply wasnt capable any longer of holding them bows to the wind. they used the anchor until the storm died down and claimed to be fairly comfortable down below. they had problems when trying to recover the anchor and managed to wrap the anchor rode round the prop, so they ended up being towed into zumaya.

there was a UScoast guard research project into this subject a year or two back, and i think it is still on their site for download. they were very thorough, and their conclusion was that the only strategy that really worked in extremis was a drogue from the stern of the boat. nothing from the bow was totally successful.

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Re: Tome\'s frig and Para-Anchors

Yes, it is my understanding that a monohull will not sit bow on to a para-anchor (but have no experience of it whatsoever myself). From memory, and I must check again, the DVD has it set up so the boat sits semi bow on - is rigged over the side with an adjustable bridle (one end back to the cockpit) so it streams off a forward quarter. But, I am afraid, too much leaning over the side for me - I am normally crawling before the seas get to the stage where our boat would be threatened!

If in drogue you are referring to the smaller item, I think there is probably alot of merit in that - we carry around 360 ft of 1" warp and some chain but have never had the need to use it. The boat 2 along from us lost its rudder (entirely, shaft sheared off at the bottom of the hull) on the way to Fiji in an ocean race a few months back and using their drogue to steer the boat managed to get to Fiji without outside assistance and no rudder.

John

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Washboards minor contribution

If you buy a few brass barrel bolts you can fit the bolt part inside the washboard going sideways. And cut corresponding holes in the mating part of the cabin aft side. You then can fix the washboards in place firmly and yet be able to remove them from inside or outside in sequence. This avoids using lashings.

<hr width=100% size=1>Roger
 
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