Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Re: Hmmm .... disagree.
Do you have lights on the jackets??
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Do you have lights on the jackets??
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Heavy weather .. Lessons Learnt
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
weather forecasts
<<Do'nt really think we could have got more info on the weather, apart from perhaps radioing the CG before making the decision to run back.>>
Jim - had you tried to call Solent Coastguard they probably wouldn't have heard you, as Low Pressure systems are not condusive to VHF transmissions. In high pressure I have been able to get a forecast from Plymouth whilst still in the Channel de Four. (110 miles)
I hope you are not going this weekend to collect the boat!
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<<Do'nt really think we could have got more info on the weather, apart from perhaps radioing the CG before making the decision to run back.>>
Jim - had you tried to call Solent Coastguard they probably wouldn't have heard you, as Low Pressure systems are not condusive to VHF transmissions. In high pressure I have been able to get a forecast from Plymouth whilst still in the Channel de Four. (110 miles)
I hope you are not going this weekend to collect the boat!
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Guest
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Post deleted by danfoley
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
I fail to see where this differs between series drogue line and a parachute - bearing in mind that the parachute is deployed in a simple single operation from its holding bag?
Can I stupidly ask why Jimi ran back before the gale to a lee shore? Best practice is surely to go for the weather shore, or sit it out hove to?
Minority opinion here, I feel.
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
I fail to see where this differs between series drogue line and a parachute - bearing in mind that the parachute is deployed in a simple single operation from its holding bag?
Can I stupidly ask why Jimi ran back before the gale to a lee shore? Best practice is surely to go for the weather shore, or sit it out hove to?
Minority opinion here, I feel.
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
I am not trying to convert anyone, but a drogue can never eliminate a pitchpole. A sea-anchor should never, whatever else, allow a pp.
I am quite happy keeping sailing up to F9, never having experienced beyond, but my money-in-the-bank is going to go into a para-anchor.
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
I am not trying to convert anyone, but a drogue can never eliminate a pitchpole. A sea-anchor should never, whatever else, allow a pp.
I am quite happy keeping sailing up to F9, never having experienced beyond, but my money-in-the-bank is going to go into a para-anchor.
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=433471&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&vc=1#Post433471>ALready explained rationale</A>
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=433471&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&vc=1#Post433471>ALready explained rationale</A>
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
I was thinking more in terms of slowing myself down a bit when coming down waves as GR is not a heavy auld beastie but a lighter kind of thoroughbred and therefore I feel she needs restraint to avoid the series of mini broaches we experienced. When she sticks her arse in the air the rudder loses a bit of grip and really does require some very active helming. Would some sort of drogue being streamed help?
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
I was thinking more in terms of slowing myself down a bit when coming down waves as GR is not a heavy auld beastie but a lighter kind of thoroughbred and therefore I feel she needs restraint to avoid the series of mini broaches we experienced. When she sticks her arse in the air the rudder loses a bit of grip and really does require some very active helming. Would some sort of drogue being streamed help?
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
Yes, this is a great theoretical debate which few of us have any experience. I would add that the trick with the para is to keep it packed in bag not dissimilar to a spinnaker bag so that it is ready for deployment.
I should have added that all these things are really over the top for ditch crossing, when none of us are likely to be in true survival conditions, and only to be really taken seriously when undertaking ocean passages.
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Yes, this is a great theoretical debate which few of us have any experience. I would add that the trick with the para is to keep it packed in bag not dissimilar to a spinnaker bag so that it is ready for deployment.
I should have added that all these things are really over the top for ditch crossing, when none of us are likely to be in true survival conditions, and only to be really taken seriously when undertaking ocean passages.
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Post deleted by danfoley
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
I bore away for La Havre, as a lee shore, last year... and glad I was. I wondered at the time whether sitting it out would have been better, who knows.
I saw a video of a parachute deployment, and it did look reasonably str.fwd. The boat was already hove-to, so already fairly stable... Like you, I have no experience of the thing, and some truly experienced friends have wagged their heads at a parachute, but I have a feeling that it could be a life-saver...
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
I bore away for La Havre, as a lee shore, last year... and glad I was. I wondered at the time whether sitting it out would have been better, who knows.
I saw a video of a parachute deployment, and it did look reasonably str.fwd. The boat was already hove-to, so already fairly stable... Like you, I have no experience of the thing, and some truly experienced friends have wagged their heads at a parachute, but I have a feeling that it could be a life-saver...
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
Ohdrat
Well-Known Member
Re: Body Protectors
Not recommended for sailing as
a) I think it would interfer with movement too much.. riders only really bend from the waist and don't need to bend sideways so I think it would hamper movement too much
b) I also think that you would need to increase the bouancy of your lifejacket... Body protectors are not made for submersion (except at the infamous water jumps) and might become waterlogged.
I hate riding in them and will prefer to rely on my "rolling" ability (bit like my boat) to avoid injury.. so I don't think they are a good idea for sailing.
To avoid being thrown around down below I would advise a small cabin..not so far to be thrown if you see what i mean!
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Not recommended for sailing as
a) I think it would interfer with movement too much.. riders only really bend from the waist and don't need to bend sideways so I think it would hamper movement too much
b) I also think that you would need to increase the bouancy of your lifejacket... Body protectors are not made for submersion (except at the infamous water jumps) and might become waterlogged.
I hate riding in them and will prefer to rely on my "rolling" ability (bit like my boat) to avoid injury.. so I don't think they are a good idea for sailing.
To avoid being thrown around down below I would advise a small cabin..not so far to be thrown if you see what i mean!
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tcm
...
Re: Parachute drogues
why did they not think them any good? vyv Cox's links seem to make sense
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why did they not think them any good? vyv Cox's links seem to make sense
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DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
I'll say aye to that.
The contra opinion covers a number of possibilities..
one: it is difficult to deploy said parachute
two: it may give too tough a tug to the bow
three: the p/c may collapse
four: if you make it long enough to be elastic enough to be not-three, then it can allow you to be blown off ahull or worse
and there are others...
The video I saw was in pretty fretty stuff, and the p/c went in quite sweetly, leaving the bow of the boat at about 1 kt. It was only about F7/8 that the video was set in, so perhaps not v realistic?
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
I'll say aye to that.
The contra opinion covers a number of possibilities..
one: it is difficult to deploy said parachute
two: it may give too tough a tug to the bow
three: the p/c may collapse
four: if you make it long enough to be elastic enough to be not-three, then it can allow you to be blown off ahull or worse
and there are others...
The video I saw was in pretty fretty stuff, and the p/c went in quite sweetly, leaving the bow of the boat at about 1 kt. It was only about F7/8 that the video was set in, so perhaps not v realistic?
<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all
Robin
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
Didn't you say though that the engine was running? If it was in gear then stopping it might help slow down? :0)
From your descriptions, the knockdown was caused by getting beam on to a breaking crest. Wind doesn't capsize keelboats but big breaking waves will surely catch most, be they light, heavy, AWB or classic, see the Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing book, chapter after the 1979 Fastnet.
Running down onto a lee shore isn't normally a good idea, but this was not a gale that had been blowing for days, the seas were caused by wind against tide probably over a rough bottom and relatively localised. The initial course was I guess SE and once some easting was in the bank (midway Cap De La Hague/Cherbourg say) then the tide woud have been running ESE too, no longer wind against tide as it would have been north of Alderney Race. The west entrance to Cherbourg is very wide and shelter from the north is immediate once into the outer harbour. However accurate navigation is essential in the hour or so before to avoid being set too far east and to stay on a manageable course to the wind, easy with modern electronics but not so in the good ole days with just pencil, paper & tide atlas. What's your view now on having a GPS chartplotter/data repeater in the cockpit Jimi??
We had an unforecast bad one in our old W33, L'Aberwrac'h to Guernsey after a week of westerly gales with a big residual swell. A secondary depression caught us out (and was missed by French and Brit forecasters) with 45kts over the deck and averaging 8kts SOG downwind and sea. We were caught flying a full mainsail (jib then rolled away) and dare not turn to take it down for fear of being rolled. It was a fb main with the halyard & reef lines at the mast. The boat was surfing at up to 10.5kts, but then lost the wind completely in the troughs and when the wind turned against the tide the seas were breaking very badly. We were just 2 on board and SWMBO struggled with the wheel which on the W33 could get very heavy, the autopilot did not react quickly enough to prevent a broach and I hand steered for some 12 hours. I did NOT want to slow down though! Active helming kept her tracking away from the breakers behind, just so long as she was 'bullied' at the start of a surf to stay say 20degs or so off dead downwind. This was pre-GPS days but we did have a Decca repeater in the cockpit set to scroll though BTW COG SOG and Off track, the compass was swinging wildly up to 30 degs either side of the course required and navigation was relegated to staying between 'on track and anything right of track'. Going left of track with Guernsey's rocky coastline was a no go, but once past the SE corner we could hopefully turn north into the shelter of the Little Russell. The Decca repeater outside with constant information was very reassuring, though SWMBO was putting regular positions on the chart below using the Yeoman plotter, she returned to the cockpit each time with hot coffees (filter too!). I would not have wanted a drogue or parachute nor to have tried to deploy one. Getting the main down would have been nice and just using some jib but a fb main with fixed lazyjacks and 45kts filling it doesn't come down willingly. On our latest boat (Jeanneau Sun Legende 41) we have 2 line, 3 reefs cockpit reefing with the fb main on roller bearing mast cars, we COULD reef this one downwind with the aid of the powerful coachroof winches and clutches. The autopilot is much better (ST6000) yet still not quick enough but the steering is both much lighter and more positive with a big wheel and big rudder, she also tracks very well, SWMBO could probably contribute some helm time therefore.
Like someone else has said, trailing drogues or parachutes etc is for the ocean survival storm. Jimi chose to run back to Cherbourg but had still got the option of turning east or even NE, maybe with some engine help, to get clear again if the seas did not diminish as he expected and as they did. I don't think (from my nice dry warm armchair) I would have turned back like Jimi BUT it would have still been on the viable options list.
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Didn't you say though that the engine was running? If it was in gear then stopping it might help slow down? :0)
From your descriptions, the knockdown was caused by getting beam on to a breaking crest. Wind doesn't capsize keelboats but big breaking waves will surely catch most, be they light, heavy, AWB or classic, see the Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing book, chapter after the 1979 Fastnet.
Running down onto a lee shore isn't normally a good idea, but this was not a gale that had been blowing for days, the seas were caused by wind against tide probably over a rough bottom and relatively localised. The initial course was I guess SE and once some easting was in the bank (midway Cap De La Hague/Cherbourg say) then the tide woud have been running ESE too, no longer wind against tide as it would have been north of Alderney Race. The west entrance to Cherbourg is very wide and shelter from the north is immediate once into the outer harbour. However accurate navigation is essential in the hour or so before to avoid being set too far east and to stay on a manageable course to the wind, easy with modern electronics but not so in the good ole days with just pencil, paper & tide atlas. What's your view now on having a GPS chartplotter/data repeater in the cockpit Jimi??
We had an unforecast bad one in our old W33, L'Aberwrac'h to Guernsey after a week of westerly gales with a big residual swell. A secondary depression caught us out (and was missed by French and Brit forecasters) with 45kts over the deck and averaging 8kts SOG downwind and sea. We were caught flying a full mainsail (jib then rolled away) and dare not turn to take it down for fear of being rolled. It was a fb main with the halyard & reef lines at the mast. The boat was surfing at up to 10.5kts, but then lost the wind completely in the troughs and when the wind turned against the tide the seas were breaking very badly. We were just 2 on board and SWMBO struggled with the wheel which on the W33 could get very heavy, the autopilot did not react quickly enough to prevent a broach and I hand steered for some 12 hours. I did NOT want to slow down though! Active helming kept her tracking away from the breakers behind, just so long as she was 'bullied' at the start of a surf to stay say 20degs or so off dead downwind. This was pre-GPS days but we did have a Decca repeater in the cockpit set to scroll though BTW COG SOG and Off track, the compass was swinging wildly up to 30 degs either side of the course required and navigation was relegated to staying between 'on track and anything right of track'. Going left of track with Guernsey's rocky coastline was a no go, but once past the SE corner we could hopefully turn north into the shelter of the Little Russell. The Decca repeater outside with constant information was very reassuring, though SWMBO was putting regular positions on the chart below using the Yeoman plotter, she returned to the cockpit each time with hot coffees (filter too!). I would not have wanted a drogue or parachute nor to have tried to deploy one. Getting the main down would have been nice and just using some jib but a fb main with fixed lazyjacks and 45kts filling it doesn't come down willingly. On our latest boat (Jeanneau Sun Legende 41) we have 2 line, 3 reefs cockpit reefing with the fb main on roller bearing mast cars, we COULD reef this one downwind with the aid of the powerful coachroof winches and clutches. The autopilot is much better (ST6000) yet still not quick enough but the steering is both much lighter and more positive with a big wheel and big rudder, she also tracks very well, SWMBO could probably contribute some helm time therefore.
Like someone else has said, trailing drogues or parachutes etc is for the ocean survival storm. Jimi chose to run back to Cherbourg but had still got the option of turning east or even NE, maybe with some engine help, to get clear again if the seas did not diminish as he expected and as they did. I don't think (from my nice dry warm armchair) I would have turned back like Jimi BUT it would have still been on the viable options list.
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Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
>Would some sort of drogue being streamed help?<
Fortunately I can't speak from experience, but I woukd be concerned that a drogue might slow her down so much that you'd have following seas breaking against the transom and into the cockpit on a pretty well continuous basis. As long as your strategy is to run for shelter, my suspicion is that you should run as fast as possible and rely on active helming and a rear view mirror to minimise exposure to pooping (which has nothing to do with holding tanks).
Having talked with one or two Whitbread sailors in the past, I know that was what they did in Southern Ocean storms.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
>Would some sort of drogue being streamed help?<
Fortunately I can't speak from experience, but I woukd be concerned that a drogue might slow her down so much that you'd have following seas breaking against the transom and into the cockpit on a pretty well continuous basis. As long as your strategy is to run for shelter, my suspicion is that you should run as fast as possible and rely on active helming and a rear view mirror to minimise exposure to pooping (which has nothing to do with holding tanks).
Having talked with one or two Whitbread sailors in the past, I know that was what they did in Southern Ocean storms.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
qsiv
Well-Known Member
Re: Getting knocked about in the boat
We've got 1/4 turn press and turn locks - I believe they are Italian. Other boards are screwed down agaisnt foam, or have left op ring pulls that have catches.
Batteries are secured with a a 2 x 1 strongback, AND have a perspex lid, so that if we invert and spill, we dont get acid in the accomodation - they are also positively ventilated by an auto fan when being charged hard.
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We've got 1/4 turn press and turn locks - I believe they are Italian. Other boards are screwed down agaisnt foam, or have left op ring pulls that have catches.
Batteries are secured with a a 2 x 1 strongback, AND have a perspex lid, so that if we invert and spill, we dont get acid in the accomodation - they are also positively ventilated by an auto fan when being charged hard.
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jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
Engine was ticking over in neutral.
I do have chartplotter repeater data in the cockpit, but the helm could'nt read it, one of the reasons we ended up too far south. I ended up giving him compass courses once I'd spotted the ground track error.
I did'nt have the option of turning east, that would have meant staying in the shipping lanes for much longer, not really a good idea in the circumstances.
I did use chart and pencil, tidal atlas etc and yes we did get caught in the first of the flood in the wrong place. 15 minutes earlier and we'd have been clear. If you'd read the rest of my post you'd know I was'nt confident about the engine so I was'nt going to bash to windward with its use for the next 10 hours.
Hope that clarifies matters.
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
Engine was ticking over in neutral.
I do have chartplotter repeater data in the cockpit, but the helm could'nt read it, one of the reasons we ended up too far south. I ended up giving him compass courses once I'd spotted the ground track error.
I did'nt have the option of turning east, that would have meant staying in the shipping lanes for much longer, not really a good idea in the circumstances.
I did use chart and pencil, tidal atlas etc and yes we did get caught in the first of the flood in the wrong place. 15 minutes earlier and we'd have been clear. If you'd read the rest of my post you'd know I was'nt confident about the engine so I was'nt going to bash to windward with its use for the next 10 hours.
Hope that clarifies matters.
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
Peppermint
Well-Known Member
Re: It must be me BUT!
This drogue, parachute stuff is nothing to do with cruising the English Channel.
If you deploy such a beast in coastal waters you are disabling your vessel in narrow & congested waters.
I have deployed such things during some trials I got roped into with a nutter I knew. Many of you doubt your ability to deploy them but in fact it's not that difficult if your organized. So there you are drogue deployed and you don't like it, or you think you may drift ashore to quickly, or want to adjust your angle to the seas. Now the fun begins. Folowing a period of protracted bad weather I'm assuming that few of us feels at there best, Well your going to need to be because recovery of a drogue, even if it's collapsed is very hard work. Of course you could cut the line.
Sea anchor devices have their place and that place is two days drifting offshore.
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This drogue, parachute stuff is nothing to do with cruising the English Channel.
If you deploy such a beast in coastal waters you are disabling your vessel in narrow & congested waters.
I have deployed such things during some trials I got roped into with a nutter I knew. Many of you doubt your ability to deploy them but in fact it's not that difficult if your organized. So there you are drogue deployed and you don't like it, or you think you may drift ashore to quickly, or want to adjust your angle to the seas. Now the fun begins. Folowing a period of protracted bad weather I'm assuming that few of us feels at there best, Well your going to need to be because recovery of a drogue, even if it's collapsed is very hard work. Of course you could cut the line.
Sea anchor devices have their place and that place is two days drifting offshore.
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jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Parachute drogues
Yep understand all that .. all I was talking about was slowing the boat down slightly so it did'nt overrun the wave cos it takes off quite fast .. bit like the missus its got a big fat bottom and all that .. had no intention of deploying a sea anchor ..
I would be interested if anyone has tried streaming a buchet ot warp and what effect it had in an AWB?
What do you reckon .. is it better to get pooped or caught beam on to a large breaking wave ... do'nt forgrt it was pitch black so the waves were only getting spotted at the last second.
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
Yep understand all that .. all I was talking about was slowing the boat down slightly so it did'nt overrun the wave cos it takes off quite fast .. bit like the missus its got a big fat bottom and all that .. had no intention of deploying a sea anchor ..
I would be interested if anyone has tried streaming a buchet ot warp and what effect it had in an AWB?
What do you reckon .. is it better to get pooped or caught beam on to a large breaking wave ... do'nt forgrt it was pitch black so the waves were only getting spotted at the last second.
<hr width=100% size=1>O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!