Heavy steering long keelers

[biscuit]

Off-wind, and even under engine, all the long keelers that I have sailed (all under 35 ft) have been heavy to steer, (particularly by my wife), and even more so in strong winds irrespective of appropriate reefing. Apart from this, I really prefer long keel boats. I am presently looking for something 30 to 32 ft L.O.A, such as a Nic.31 or 32, Halmatic etc. Advice please from anyone with personal experience of this issue.

 

[Csail]

Our colvic is very heavy but i think its a hydraulic problem.

 

[Wansworth]

I had a long keeler.The heavy helm is related to the rudder which in most cases is unbalanced.The boat will run true without big helm alterations but any tiller movement will be hard work,some boats like pilot cutters had relieving tackle to make controlling the boat easier.The up side is the rudder combined withe prop wash and prop walk gives useful handling in a harbour if you remmember which way the prop walks.I have sailed on a Nic 32 which was not too arduous but found it didnt likwe motoring thout a hand on the tiller.

 

[NOHOH]

A bit longer than you are looking for....but the standard (mechanical)steering arrangement on a Victory 40.....utilizing 3 gearboxes...means they can be steered on all points of sail using only the strength of one finger......and 2 complete turns lock to lock of a 24" wheel.....
The underwater configuration can be viewed here:- www.victory40.co.uk

 

[prv]

I have a long keel and don't find the tiller particularly heavy. Fairly small boat though.

Pete

 

[Lady Campanula]

I'm aware that the Rival 34 is heavy on the tiller while under engine power - due to propwash effect over the rudder - but is light and well-balanced under sail. Subject, of course, to ordinary sail trim...

 

[CodStewart]

I have a long keel, too, and miss it terribly, even the tough moments.

 

[rob2]

The only long keeler I have experience of is the Contessa 26 which has quite a light helm. Perhaps this is because the rudder is inclined? I believe the Nics are also rated as quite light on the helm.

Rob.

 

[doug748]

I suspect you are right and it is the nature of the beast.

It is difficult to imagine a lighter boat with a slim fin keel being hard to turn on the helm, and yet turning in a sprightly fashion. Similarly, a robust boat with full keel, at speed, is probably going to take a good shove to move off course.

You just have to decide what you want (or can put up with), fertile ground for rows on the forum.

 

[KellysEye]

We have got a 38 foot long keeler with Whitlock Mamba rod steering with gearbox. The steering isn't heavy and the lock to lock is 4.5 turns.

 

[pvb]

I have a Hallberg Rassy 352, which is sort of long keel, and the wheel steering is very light (2.5 turns lock to lock).

 

[Seajet]

I've sailed at least the majority of the various Folkboats, and they're not heavy on the helm, with the exception of one which was trimmed badly bow down; I'd expect the rudder aft of a long keel to be blanketted and a touch ineffectual to begin with in a turn, rather than heavy - unless someone had fitted or 'designed' a barn door rudder to make up for this !

A long rather than deep rudder will indeed give heavy handling...

 

[Avocet]

The only long keeler I have experience of is the Contessa 26 which has quite a light helm. Perhaps this is because the rudder is inclined? I believe the Nics are also rated as quite light on the helm.

Rob.

Cutlass 27 also pretty light. Again, an inclined rudder pivot axis. OK, it doesn't spin round in its own length, but the actual effort to hold the tiller against the (pretty minimal) weather helm is not much. I can just about steer with my little finger for a minute or so in a F6.

 

[donm]

Off-wind, and even under engine, all the long keelers that I have sailed (all under 35 ft) have been heavy to steer, (particularly by my wife), and even more so in strong winds irrespective of appropriate reefing. Apart from this, I really prefer long keel boats. I am presently looking for something 30 to 32 ft L.O.A, such as a Nic.31 or 32, Halmatic etc. Advice please from anyone with personal experience of this issue.

I have a Halmatic 30. I bought her because I wanted a well mannered and balanced boat and she has never let me down. If the helm is heavy it is because either the sails are not balanced properly or I have too much sail up. It is my fault and not the boat and she is very comfortable with the right amount of sail properly trimmed.

 

[LittleSister]

I have sailed boats with heavy steering - very tiring after a while - but our long keel Samphire 23 isn't one of them. Although we get a bit of weather helm from our clapped out baggy old mainsail, and especially if we don't reef down in strong winds, the actual effort required to keep her on track is not too great.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... I am presently looking for something 30 to 32 ft L.O.A, such as a Nic.31 or 32, Halmatic etc. Advice please from anyone with personal experience of this issue.

Some good value Rivals for sale, with some being refurbished and at a good price; worth a look. The smaller Rivals all sail well and are well balanced and you could ask on their forum for opinions.

http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/noticeboard/forsale/forsale.htm

A few of the 30 footers have taken part in long offshore races where they fared well in their day being noted for easy wind vane steering which requires a balanced helm, for example.

Experience of Heavy Steering
I have sailed a Rival 41C with both cable and rod steering. The cable steering was much harder work (when healed or turning fast under power) as the force from the rudder was directly transmitted to the wheel. The bevel gear boxes and 2 x lever arms associated with rod steering do restrain torque transmission back to the wheel. While this makes moving the rudder easier, there is a loss of feel. I would not expect such a system though on a 30 to 32' yacht.

The Rivals are not true long keelers with their fin style keel; thick, long and encapsulated, with a skeg and deep forefoot.

The veritable Contessa 32 I found hard on the tiller in a blow, in big gusts when she had her gunwale in the water, other wise she was not.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Off-wind, and even under engine, all the long keelers that I have sailed (all under 35 ft) have been heavy to steer, (particularly by my wife), and even more so in strong winds irrespective of appropriate reefing. Apart from this, I really prefer long keel boats. I am presently looking for something 30 to 32 ft L.O.A, such as a Nic.31 or 32, Halmatic etc. Advice please from anyone with personal experience of this issue.

A rudder built onto the end of a long keel has little or no balance area and so will be heavy.

But why on earth do you want a keel design that was forced on early boatbuilders because of the limitations of the material then commonly used - wood. Its hydrodynamically highly inefficient and it has high drag. We've progressed since those days.

 

[NOHOH]

In Praise of Long Keels

But why on earth do you want a keel design that was forced on early boatbuilders because of the limitations of the material then commonly used - wood. Its hydrodynamically highly inefficient and it has high drag. We've progressed since those days.[/QUOTE]

Maybe its because long keels are generally of the encapsulated type....therefore no keelbolts to corrode or replace.....they don`t fall off...or get knocked off....don`t generally get ropes/nets caught around them....and even if you run into a serious underwater obstruction..like a tree trunk for example...there is the chance that you will just `run over it`.

 

[Goldie]

As Mogy says, most (if not all?) of the rudders on long keeled boats are unbalanced - that is to say that the area is all aft of the pintles so there is no area 'helping' by reducung the forces as you would usually find on a spade rudder or skeg hung rudder. However, if the sail trim is right, loads are usually low. You mention the Halmatic. I had one for several years and took her to the Med and back. The heaviest helm was at the top of the unreefed wind range. As sail area reduced and winds increased, the balance improved until with a smallish headsail and 2 slabs down, she'd sail herself to windward, tiller free, in a F7. My Halmatic was a Mk1 with a longer boom sheeted to the transom. The Mk2 (in addition to a different saloon layout) had a shorter boom sheeted to the bridge deck and approx 30 sq ft less area in the main. I haven't sailed a Mk 2, but I believe this reduced the weight in the helm considerably. It's worth noting that the weight isn't weather helm as such as the tiller was rarely more than a few degrees above the centreline.

I still sail a long keeler - a Biscay 36 which we've had since '95. There's no doubt that wheel steering reduces the loads on the helmsman but you wouldn't want it to be geared so as to mask what the boat's trying to tell you.

 

[biscuit]

Thanks to all respondents: some very shrewd comments here.
I have owned, sailed, and chartered and crewed on a variety of fin and long keel boats from 22- 41 ft (upwind the 41ft fin keeler broached & needed a reef every time the wind got above 12 kts!). And they all had their plus points. The heaviest downwind was a Victoriia 30, with a big rudder on the end of a long keel (tiller steered). Why do I like long keelers? My wife really prefers the motion of long keel boats: and the added security of an encapsulated, usually relatively shallow draft(compared to most fin keelers) keel is reassuring especially when rock hopping in the Hebrides, where speed takes second place.