Heating

[Becky]

I intend to replace the Micuni hot air heating on my Moody 27with a hot water system. Main reason is the start-up demand of 9-10 amps of the Micuni, and the fact that the last owner used up all of the locker under the port saloon berth with the heating pipes. Also it is a very effective system, and quickly got up to temperature, which meant that it was continually cutting in and out. Have been recommended the Webasto system, and had a quote from Moody's for £4000; so I will do it myself. Anyone have any advice or comments on Webasto, or the concept of hot water heating with air-driven matrices? My engine is raw-water cooled but still seemingly quite OK, so isn't included in the plumbing.
Also need to increase the water capacity; am planning to use Plastimo flexible water tanks, one under the cockpit floor of 20 gallons (200lbs)and one replacing the under-starboard-saloon-berth GRP tank raising capacity from 18 gallons to about 20 gallons. Anyone have experience of these tanks?

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[gtmoore]

Hi

Can't help with the heating but have used Plastimo flexible tanks in my Moody 29. I simply lined the existing GRP tanks (one under port and starboard bunks) with 100 litre flexi tanks and connected them up. Used them with pressurised water system with no problems in the last 18 months.

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[poggy]

Hi,

I used a Webasto water heater in our Land Rover for pre-heating and stationary car heating (same one as marine I believe). It was fantastic and never let me down even when it was absolutely freezing cold. The product seems to be good quality, mind £4K seems a huge amount of money to install the system as they are not that expensive.

We have 100l flexible tanks in our Gib'Sea and they seem pretty strong. The only thing is they do balloon when you fill them to the top, so you either need a very strong enclosure to contain them or a lot of space.

Poggy

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[PeterGibbs]

Hello Becky,

The quote for the Webasto seems to assume complete reengineering of the boat. But Moody are not easy to retrofit this kind of gear so this may be the reason. Avoid this quoted source at all costs.

I had a Webasto 3.5 kw air heater fitted end to end for £1500. Works like a dream and does not kill the batteries - in fact it is very easy on power use - one of its plus points. Webasto appears to me to be more advanced than Ebersbaecher and to have features that give it the edge. It also blows cool air around - nice in the summer, I can tell you!

I considered a water system - not recommended. Blown air is very immediate - and this is what you want. A two hour lag to heat the boat via pipes and rads will soon have you wondering whether you should leave the boat and return the next day!

Go Webasto. You will not be disappointed.

Peter Gibbs

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[pvb]

Alternative...

So you're upset that your Mikuni heater takes 9-10 amps on start-up. So you're considering spending thousands to replace the system. Might there be a viable alternative? How about investing a couple of hundred in some extra battery capacity? Or is money no object to you?

Plastimo flexible tanks are good products, but need to be carefully installed in sailboats, otherwise constant flexing will result in leaky connections. Wouldn't be worth installing one in lieu of GRP tank if you're only gaining 2 gallons capacity.

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[charles_reed]

My perception is that you're asking 4 questions here.

Changing from blown air to hot water heating
Webasto compared to Mikuyini
Fixed compared to flexible water tanks
The longevity of Plastimo water tanks

In a small boat like yours, and unless you intend to cruise high latitudes, I would opine that you will regret the decision to change to a hot water system, on the grounds of cost, weight and complexity.
If your concern is about heating and having hot water, why not look at a blown air system with an LPG water heater.
When my Eberspacher packed in after 5 years use and a quote in excess of £550 for repair, I ditched it and have used an electric fan heater ever since. It's been totally satisfactory, even down to -8C outside and far, far cheaper. On the rare occasions when I need heating away from shore power the lpg oven serves admirably.

Webasto, together with Eberspacher are considered to be the cream of heating systems, their price reflects this but they can in no way be compared to Mikuyini which is, after all, very much cheaper. I would agree with another poster that Webasto appear to have very much more elegant designs than Eberspacher.

I have had flexible water tanks in 2 boats I have owned - they've been thoroughly satisfactory. However they need to be very carefully mounted, with lots of space and no obstructions round them. It's also far more satisfactory to suspend them than to have them resting on a base. They are not as satisfactory as well-designed and constructed "hard" tanks due to a lack of baffles allowing the water to slosh around and exaggerate pitching and the difficulties they can lead to over trim. With a gain of only 2 gallons I would think the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages.
If you can fit additional flexible tanks as saddle tanks in the outboard lockers, with appropriate cross-pumping arrangements, you could find them useful as water ballast if you intend to sail on serious voyages.

The last Plastimo flexible tanks I fitted lasted 11 years before disintegrating.

I would suggest your proposals are both expensive and regressive.

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[Alexis]

may be tottally ou of the picture, but have you considered a KISS ( Keep It Simple and Stupid) solution, such as the one aI have on my 35 footer: A small Refleks MKS66 diesel stove, that is gravity fed through a very basic regulator, heating coil on which you can connect a boiler and a couple of radiators. The model I have has a cooking plate and is installed against the main bulkhead, in a cutout I did in the table, with cooking plate level with the table top, chich enables me too cook while sitting at the table with everyone.

No pumps, no preeheating plugs, no noise, totally foolproof, no special skills or tools needed to totaly strip it down and repare it, every single part can be ordered sperately, and very effective it is too! (managed 27°C inside semi insulated hull with outside temperature of -12°C, and that was without the radiators.)

Not mentionnning the costs, that have nithing to do with the ones you mentionned, but perhaps we don't leave in the same world...

See what they look like. (There's even a totally insulated version that can be installed in a locker.)
http://www.refleks-olieovne.dk/engelsk/frefgb.htm

Cheers, Alexis

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[gunnarsilins]

Webasto

I installed a Webasto water heating system (Thermo 90 diesel fuelled, 9kW) on my Moody 42 ketch 3 years ago. As I live in Stockholm, and sails as long I´m not restricted by ice, the heater is used very much and for long periods.
9 kW is probly a bit over the top, but we have spent several weekends living aboard (but stuck in the ice of course) with outside temperatures close to -20 degrees and still having a comfortable + 20 in the cabins.
The heater have never failed, it starts promptly and seems to be very reliable.

One good thing with a water heating system is that you can plumb in an isolated accumulator tank in the system, in my case it´s 80 litres.
This means that when the heater is turned on it runs for quite a long time before all the water in the system is heated (to approx 80 degrees) and when finally the cabin thermostate switches the heater off, the hot water in the system continues to circulate.
The benefit of this is that in moderate cold weather the temperature in the cabins are kept more even, with no need for the heater to switch on and off in short intervals, and thus keeping to power consumption down. I also beleive that longer duty cycles gives the heater less wear.




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[robp]

Who fitted your Webasto Peter?

Rob

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