Heating the boat

zoidberg

zoidberg

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.... and the cold, damp inmates.

I have one of those shiny Pascall Atkey 'Pansy' heater almost ready to be fitted to my project, but someone who should be nameless has drawn my attention to the Chinese imported diesel air heaters, selling at around £160..... plus cost of some bits. They seem to have quite a following.

It's getting to that time of year when such a discussion/decision becomes almost a priority.

Pros? Contras?
 
Cant say but I've read that some of the imported heaters do seem to be of reasonable quality. Would I leave it on while away from the boat... no. But I don't do that with my webasto either.

The best purchase I ever made was a simple matrix heater wired in parallel to the hot water tank from the engine feed. Cost about £100, easy to install and we could get the cabin of a 43ft boat up to 25C in Norway whilst it was snowing outside. Clearly it needs the engine running but its a no brainer in terms of those continuing to sail in winter.

Interestingly... Webasto sell the identical matrix unit under their own name for £400. I found the same unit and I meant the same unit under the name of the actual manufacturer (no doubt in china) for £100. It just shows not everything you believe is German engineering actually is.
 
northcave said:
Cant say but I've read that some of the imported heaters do seem to be of reasonable quality. Would I leave it on while away from the boat... no. But I don't do that with my webasto either.

The best purchase I ever made was a simple matrix heater wired in parallel to the hot water tank from the engine feed. Cost about £100, easy to install and we could get the cabin of a 43ft boat up to 25C in Norway whilst it was snowing outside. Clearly it needs the engine running but its a no brainer in terms of those continuing to sail in winter.

Interestingly... Webasto sell the identical matrix unit under their own name for £400. I found the same unit and I meant the same unit under the name of the actual manufacturer (no doubt in china) for £100. It just shows not everything you believe is German engineering actually is.
Click to expand...

Eberspacher and Webasto have had their wrists slapped (and more) for price fixing. I think some alternatives are sourced from Russia.
 
Graham_Wright said:
Eberspacher and Webasto have had their wrists slapped (and more) for price fixing. I think some alternatives are sourced from Russia.
Click to expand...

Not surprised. Their spares prices are just outrageous. I was fortunate enough to collect 3 defunct units identical to mine over the course of a year and now have spares to rebuild mine entirely. The cost of fixing it with spares was something like 2.5x the cost of a new one.

In time I'll invest in a little diesel stove like a Dickinson or similar.
 
The diesel fired heater market now has three categories.

1. The original players. All good quality but expensive. Eberspacher, Webasto, Wallas and to a lesser extent Mikuni
2. The Russian Planar heaters. Affordable and generally hearing good things
3. Chinese manufactured heaters, often sold using the Planar name but are not Planar. These are very cheap and delivery, service and quality is very hit and miss. Some people are very pleased with them, others have all but thrown them away. Glow plugs seem to be a particularly weak point. On the upside, you can get a whole kit for under £150, but you will need to add to it for a boat installation, which will cost around another £100 for mounting bracket, skin fitting, decent hose clamps and some proper fuel line. You may also want to add a proper marine silencer for extra quid. Could end up doubling the price, but still only around £300.

You pay your money and take your choice.
 
Graham_Wright said:
Eberspacher and Webasto have had their wrists slapped (and more) for price fixing. I think some alternatives are sourced from Russia.
Click to expand...

But nothing to do with marine heaters. It was OE truck heaters.

You are right, though, Russian made heatings of similar design are available and cheaper.
 
I fitted a Planar after my Eber went US. Very pleased with it. Identical fixing centres, managed to use the existing fuel feed (but with new pump), exhaust hose, ducting, and much of the wiring harness.

It seems to be much more controllable that the Eber, starts faultlessly, bit quieter.

Note that the Planar has quite a bit of 'Europeanisation'. They are actually supplied from Russia through the manufacturer's subsidiary in Latvia, have some European components (German fuel pump?) and full CE marking.
 
We are just beginning to plan the heating for installation on our new boat this autumn. We had Webasto on our first new boat, Eberspacher on the second one and we are planning on going back to Webasto for the third. Fitted professionally, we are being quoted about £2750 for a forty-odd foot sailing yacht.

I think a lot depends on the way that you use the boat. If it is just a few short visits in the cold weather, then it may be justifiable to economise by going for one of the Russian or Chinese designs. We spend more than 50% of the week on board all the year round, so we want something that will support comfortable living ranging from a few cool nights in September through bitterly cold days in January and back out to cool nights in March and early April. Our experience of Webasto was that it simply worked and could cope with patterns of usage that other heaters considered abusive. Our Webasto went onto a low thermostat in early October and would tick over for days without complaining. The Eberspacher in our second boat failed within a year and was out of service more often than it was working for the five years that we had it. The engineer from the main dealer who struggled to keep it working told us that much of the problem came from asking it to run on low power for long periods.

I've looked at the Russian machines - I suspect that they are not dramatically different from Eberspachers. I do find that the various control options available on the cheap up-starts are disappointing. This is probably a reflection of our semi-liveaboard status - I want a proper domestic central heating style programmer that can be configured with on and off times spanning a full week or more. I would also like remote control functionality that will allow me to leave our house, kicking up the heating and arrive at the boat an hour or so later to find it toasty warm.
 
northcave said:
Cant say but I've read that some of the imported heaters do seem to be of reasonable quality. Would I leave it on while away from the boat... no. But I don't do that with my webasto either.

The best purchase I ever made was a simple matrix heater wired in parallel to the hot water tank from the engine feed. Cost about £100, easy to install and we could get the cabin of a 43ft boat up to 25C in Norway whilst it was snowing outside. Clearly it needs the engine running but its a no brainer in terms of those continuing to sail in winter.

Interestingly... Webasto sell the identical matrix unit under their own name for £400. I found the same unit and I meant the same unit under the name of the actual manufacturer (no doubt in china) for £100. It just shows not everything you believe is German engineering actually is.
Click to expand...

My boat is a deck saloon (ketch), so we have a choice of helms. If motoring in the cold and the wet, we have enough sense to stay in out of the rain. I fitted a matrix (£10 from the scrappies out of a Transit). One of the best £10 I've ever spent.

For living aboard in the cold, my Eberspacher is excellent, but if it failed I would give the Russian/Chinese versions serious consideration.
 
I experimented with a heater matrix from a car.
I quickly discvered that a lightly loaded diesel engine produces remarkably little waste heat.
So unless you motor a lot, forget it.
Car matrices also need a powerful fan to push enough air through them.
In my view there are 3 options:
Webasto hot air
Webasto water heating and boat-specific matrices (or domestic convecotr/radiators for a liveaboard, big heavy boat, narrow boat etc)
Both of the above.
 
We tend to Marina hop in the winter, so most of the time we use a £20 convection heater off the mains electrcity. We also have a Eberspacher for occasional use otherwise.
 
I've fitted one of those Chinese heaters, and in addition to the £150 unit had to add a marine exhaust outlet for £40, a longer length of exhaust hose for £30, and some ducting as the unit only comes with about a metre. Ducting cost is obviously highly dependent on your boat size/layout.

Verdict so far? It's not had a great deal of use, but to date has performed flawlessly, pumping out a good deal of heat. We've cruised for a total of four weeks this year and it has also been used occasionally on the mooring to help keep the cabin dry. I don't run it unattended, and as with any form of combustion appliance I have a CO monitor. Incidentally this monitor has been set off by my cooker a few times, but never by the heater.

There is an active Facebook group dedicated to users of these heaters and whilst many of the discussions revolve around various problems, I think that's just because there isn't a great deal to discuss when everything works as it should. Some people report problems with sellers in China- principally delays, customs fees, and descriptions not matching the actual items. Very much minority cases though. Glowplugs are perhaps the most commonly reported actual breakdown, but it seems you can source replacements for around £25 from Alibaba.
 
zoidberg said:
Hmmm. No-one seems to have made a positive comment about the little 'Pansy'.....

Ebay?
Click to expand...

Pros: lovely gentle dry background heat, silent, zero electricity consumption. An excellent fit for a small 'open plan' boat that lives on a mooring and has an outboard (i.e. has little access to electricity)

Cons: cannot heat a larger or more divided up space as the heat is not ducted; can be tricky to install as you have to mount it in your cabin somewhere and cannot simply tuck it away in a locker; flue run needs consideration; can be prone to downdrafts; fuel is bulky, prone to getting damp, and can be hard to source in winter. Cannot be set on a timer so you will inevitably wake up to a cold boat.
 
maby said:
We are just beginning to plan the heating for installation on our new boat this autumn. We had Webasto on our first new boat, Eberspacher on the second one and we are planning on going back to Webasto for the third. Fitted professionally, we are being quoted about £2750 for a forty-odd foot sailing yacht.

I think a lot depends on the way that you use the boat. If it is just a few short visits in the cold weather, then it may be justifiable to economise by going for one of the Russian or Chinese designs. We spend more than 50% of the week on board all the year round, so we want something that will support comfortable living ranging from a few cool nights in September through bitterly cold days in January and back out to cool nights in March and early April. Our experience of Webasto was that it simply worked and could cope with patterns of usage that other heaters considered abusive. Our Webasto went onto a low thermostat in early October and would tick over for days without complaining. The Eberspacher in our second boat failed within a year and was out of service more often than it was working for the five years that we had it. The engineer from the main dealer who struggled to keep it working told us that much of the problem came from asking it to run on low power for long periods.

I've looked at the Russian machines - I suspect that they are not dramatically different from Eberspachers. I do find that the various control options available on the cheap up-starts are disappointing. This is probably a reflection of our semi-liveaboard status - I want a proper domestic central heating style programmer that can be configured with on and off times spanning a full week or more. I would also like remote control functionality that will allow me to leave our house, kicking up the heating and arrive at the boat an hour or so later to find it toasty warm.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with your choice. I had a Webasto Airtop Evo fitted to my boat when it was new 4 years ago. It's been superb, virtually silent most of the time, very happily drops down to tickover once the boat is up to temperature.
 
Laysula said:
We tend to Marina hop in the winter, so most of the time we use a £20 convection heater off the mains electrcity. We also have a Eberspacher for occasional use otherwise.
Click to expand...

We have done that for several years and it works ok - a lot depends on the marina you reside in. We were at MDL marinas for the last few years and were able to keep the boat warm throughout the winter at about £100 per quarter. We spent this spring in a Premier marina which requires you to "put an electronic shilling in the meter" and it was costing us a fortune - even in relatively warm weather we were getting through £10 of electricity in a weekend! Admittedly, we do need more than one £20 convection heater - we were running two fan heaters at a kilowatt each.
 
The big drawback to blown air type heaters is the electrical draw. If you've got good batteries and means of charging, there's nothing to beat them - the webasto seems to be more reliable than most but the Russian and Chinese ones are much cheaper.
Otherwise I'd go for a drip feed oil heater. The disadvantage is that you can't program them to start automatically or press a start button with a stick from the comfort of your sleeping bag.
 
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