heaters

Another vote against expecting an inverter to run much. The battery drain is huge from even the smallest coke tin sized inverters - the 100 or 150 watt jobbies will wreck your 12 volt batteries in no time at all. I am typing on this on my laptop powered by an inverter - only becasue after days of F 10s and otherwise constant 8s and 9s on the Fal my windmill has put so much power onto my service bank that they are completely topped up - despite running the fridge and mobile phone charger etc.
So the plug in type inverters are only for short term use I suggest.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5
 
I am currently bench testing a Hydronic 4 unit with a small calorifier and a 2.2 kW micro matrix unit like this http://www.t7design.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=189. Despite a very adequate water temperature the output of the matrix is a little disappointing, although to be fair the air temperature is only about 4C. This finding was forewarned on the forum, apparently the 15 mm tubing in the unit does not transfer heat very efficiently. I will persevere with it as the boat is small and it will be difficult to install anything bigger.
 
We ran an inverter on the Moody Steve and just boiling the kettle would make the alternator belt slip unless we came back to idle when it kicked in. Chewed belts if not careful so for a fan heater or a microwave beware.
Would you like a Pansy charcoal heater? I've got one going cheap/spare when Tiarella arrives as I've gone for a new Hampshire Heater.
 
I assume this is a "wind-up"


dunmor said:
reading the thread on heaters made me wonder what size inverter i would need to run a small
fan heater in my wheel house whilst under way?. i have seen this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281022258134?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
on ebay, which doesn't seem a bad price for 1500watts. would it be enough, be handy if it could handle a
microwave as well. obviously it would run on the engine battery whilst running.
Click to expand...
 
vyv_cox said:
I am currently bench testingThis finding was forewarned on the forum, apparently the 15 mm tubing in the unit does not transfer heat very efficiently. I will persevere with it as the boat is small and it will be difficult to install anything bigger.
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Indeed, matrix are not efficient with diesel boilers due to the lower coolant temperature, a number of times when I have installed the boiler in circuit with the engine, using temperature controlled diverters they work well when its the engine heating the coolant but dissapointing when run on the boiler even with insulated hoses. As you have it now you could try slowing the flow with a valve, gradually balance it to just below max shut off by the boiler. Especially in the controlled situation you are in it should be easy to fiddle, this can produce an improvement and you can easily measure the difference. The good ones made by Kalori and sold by the likes of Kuranda & Mikuni (two of my distrubutors) are much better as the 16mm inlet and outlets branch into smaller tubes internally, still not perfect but better. Until somebody comes up with a proper matrix with a header tank at each end and lots of very small tubes I can't see any real improvement. Car Builder Solutions sell a matrix box which uses a car heater matrix and that matrix meets those criteria, I am considering getting one to put on test but won't hold my breath, its more about the actual coolant temp, or rather the difference between the ambient and coolant temp.
 
I have a t7 heater on Little Ship, originally it was the smallest one but found it a little noisy. When I contacted the owner of the company he was testing an alternative one which I now have fitted. It looks like it didn't get passed the design/test stage as it isn't shown.

The smallest car matrix is the VW polo and is ample for heating the wheel house, you should be able to pick one up for less than £25 at a scrap yard. It's what I had fitted at first and it was fine.

Tom
 
David2452 said:
Indeed, matrix are not efficient with diesel boilers due to the lower coolant temperature, a number of times when I have installed the boiler in circuit with the engine, using temperature controlled diverters they work well when its the engine heating the coolant but dissapointing when run on the boiler even with insulated hoses. As you have it now you could try slowing the flow with a valve, gradually balance it to just below max shut off by the boiler. Especially in the controlled situation you are in it should be easy to fiddle, this can produce an improvement and you can easily measure the difference. The good ones made by Kalori and sold by the likes of Kuranda & Mikuni (two of my distrubutors) are much better as the 16mm inlet and outlets branch into smaller tubes internally, still not perfect but better. Until somebody comes up with a proper matrix with a header tank at each end and lots of very small tubes I can't see any real improvement. Car Builder Solutions sell a matrix box which uses a car heater matrix and that matrix meets those criteria, I am considering getting one to put on test but won't hold my breath, its more about the actual coolant temp, or rather the difference between the ambient and coolant temp.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I think it was yourself who advised earlier that these heaters were probably not great performers. I contacted the supplier and returned the unit, upon which he advised that the number of fins was less than normal. He replaced it with another but its performance is little better. His diagnosis is that the flow rate is insufficient, which I do not agree as the whole circuit, including the headers each side of the matrix, seem to be at similar temperatures.
 
Another argument against using cheap EBay inverters for running elelctronics is that the AC waveform is often 'modified sine wave' which can be anything from sawtooth to square wave. Electronics do not like these modified waveforms and MAY - more often than not- either shut down or even be fried by it. I have a small genny which produces a squarish wave output; my electric drill has an electronic speed control which just hates it, and half the time just gives up. If it does condescend to work, speed varies from half to nil even at full speed setting.. I had to buy a cheap single speed drill to work with it.

Goodness knows what would happen to the electronics in a microwave! Might be fine, or might fry the microwave!

Also we find in our motor caravan a 1kw heater, whether a blower or convector is juts not enough to make any real difference. I would expect the van to be better insulated than a wheelhouse, too.
 
vyv_cox said:
Thanks for the info. I think it was yourself who advised earlier that these heaters were probably not great performers. I contacted the supplier and returned the unit, upon which he advised that the number of fins was less than normal. He replaced it with another but its performance is little better. His diagnosis is that the flow rate is insufficient, which I do not agree as the whole circuit, including the headers each side of the matrix, seem to be at similar temperatures.
Click to expand...

It's all about the temperature diferential Vic, try slowing it a bit to get it a bit hotter, I know that's contrary to the makers advice but they are used to them being fed by coolant at higher temperatures.
 
I'm not surprised you're experiencing poor results. Certainly if my experience is anything to go by.

I purchased and installed a Webasto 8kw matrix a few years ago thinking it would make us really toasty under way.
It's fed solely from the starboard engine, so plenty of water flow through it but I was a bit disappointed that the air coming out was only luke warm, not like a car heater where it's hot. Slightly warmer on slowest fan speed, but not much.

So I changed the stbd engine thermostat* from 82 to 90 deg and it improved things slightly, although still doesn't blow as hot as a car heater. No idea why.
It does make the whole inside of the boat and wheelhouse comfortable (20-22degrees) after some time when cruising in cooler ambient temps of sub 10 degrees, but probably no quicker than the 2.2kw electric fan heater we use when in the marina.

When I bought the matrix I really thought I was overspeccing it! So not surprised you're not having much joy with a 2 kw unit.
Still, it's "free" heat, so definitely worth persevering! Good luck.

*I did this after direct experience of the difference it made in a Mini's heater. With an 82 summer thermostat, heater would only blow luke warm. Not nearly enough in winter. With an 88deg thermostat, the heater blew so hot you had to turn it down after a while, even when sub zero outside ! I figured the same would apply in the boat. Took me a while to find the right thermostat though! Thank goodness for great motor factors.
 
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The odd thing is that reading various kit car forums about the use of the same unit, they all seem to think they are marvellous. Something to do with the relative volumes they are being asked to heat, I suppose.
 
David2452 said:
There is little point comparing with vehicle haeters, consider this, the average diesel boiler will run in the upper 60s / lower 70s when installed, the average car will run between 85 and 95 depending whether petrol or diesel. Also consider this, a 3l engine can generate 23kw of waste heat.

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/ancillary_loads/pdfs/2002_01_1969.pdf
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Trundlebug was describing running his from his engine coolant system. I was replying regarding kit cars. I understand the temperature differences.
 
Hi all,

I was interested to read the idea of using a car heater matrix. My boat (MF805) has what is essentially a Toyota land cruiser engine so I could imagine that fitting a car type heat exchanger might be simple enough.

Does anyone have some more information on this type of installation?

thanks

rich
 
richlear said:
Hi all,

I was interested to read the idea of using a car heater matrix. My boat (MF805) has what is essentially a Toyota land cruiser engine so I could imagine that fitting a car type heat exchanger might be simple enough.

Does anyone have some more information on this type of installation?

thanks

rich
Click to expand...

Just plunb it in with a feed and return tapped from the calorifier circuit (parallel not series) , put a couple of valves (or at least one on the return) so you can balance the flow rate, it should perform OK when the engine is up to temp but the wheelhouse / saloon is a big area for a car matrix, that's why mini busses have auxillary heaters in the back.
 
David2452 said:
Just plunb it in with a feed and return tapped from the calorifier circuit (parallel not series) , put a couple of valves (or at least one on the return) so you can balance the flow rate, it should perform OK when the engine is up to temp but the wheelhouse / saloon is a big area for a car matrix, that's why mini busses have auxillary heaters in the back.
Click to expand...

I did it using a Ford Transit matrix, and it works very well. I made a housing for the matrix, and installed it into the Eberspacher ducting, just before the outlet into the deck-saloon. I used the "cold blow" setting on the Eber to give out the heat from the matrix.
I have since altered it by fitting it with separate ducting, and an in-line fan. Mine is piped in series with the calorifier, without any problems, although I can see some advantages (and disadvantages) of having it piped in parallel, with valve(s).
Mine was written up in PBO three or four years ago, but it's not rocket science - every car has it.
 
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