Health and Safety kills Corgi

That isn't quite true in that *not* anyone can do so. he or she has to be competent (eg a qualified engineer would, i imagine, be competent) under these regulations, as I remember. However, I am almost certain that Prescott when he was DPM brought in a change to that regulation which required you to be Corgi registered.

Capita are the organisation who undertook a gov contract processing confidential information and took on 10 YOPs and an Amstrad with 28k modem to do so online. They were "surprised" when the building filled up with sacks of mail as the users of the "system" understood that the risk of online fraud required a signed application. This was the infamous CRB check which left most schools without all their teachers as their CRB check had not been completed.

Then there's the Crapita financial services outfit who lose customer assets .. and that's their custodial service ..

It goes on and on and on. There can be no other cpy so incompetent ... all those gasmen will look back wistfully to the pre-Crapita days ..
 
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That isn't quite true in that *not* anyone can do so. he or she has to be competent (eg a qualified engineer would, i imagine, be competent) under these regulations, as I remember. However, I am almost certain that Prescott when he was DPM brought in a change to that regulation which required you to be Corgi registered.

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Agreed, being competent is a legal requirement, which applies to anyone. When I last looked at it in detail (2 years ago), the regulations (G S (I & U) 1998) put a duty on employers and the self employed not to carry out work on gas installations unless they were the "class of persons" approved by the HSE (i.e. CORGI registered, currently). I'm not aware of any changes since. I also had the HSE guidance on the regulations which amplified the point about DIY, in line with what I posted above - I posted the extract on the forum at the time, but can't find it now. (Suspect it was in the Lounge.)

Andy
 
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(The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998)

Andy

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Any chance you could be a little more specific.....where does it say it`s OK to do DIY..???


....
 
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Any chance you could be a little more specific.....

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Honest answer to honest question:

Regulation 3 (3) here

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no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph

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The "class of persons...." is specified elsewhere (not in the regulations) as being CORGI registered.

This is the only link between the regulations and CORGI, and as such, it doesn't impose any duties on private individuals. As in my reply to Parahandy above, I had the HSE guidance on these regulations, and in interpreting this regulation, they specifically stated (paraphrasing slightly) that while private individuals working on their own/family/friends gas installation where no payment or reward is involved, must be competent, there was no requirement for them to be CORGI registered.

I no longer have access to the guidance, or I would cite it properly, but I have posted the relevant extract verbatim on one of the YBW forums in the past (PBO, S/Butt, or Lounge).

I'm not arguing that DIY gas fitting is necessarily a good idea, but that the recommended practices and standards should be widely available and understood.

Andy

Edit: Sorry, replied before you edited your post to add " where does it say it`s OK to do DIY..???" - hopefully the reply still makes sense.
 
I dunno….I don`t think your interpretation of the gas reg.s is quite in line with the thinking behind the basic concept of gas work regulation…which after all was only created to stop DIY and silly accidents….

You may however be getting confused with the two exceptions where gas work can be carried out without the operative being GORGI registered…

1...In industrial premises a worker may have worked on gas plant for many years….the employer may apply to the health and safety for permission for him to work on the plant ….once this permission is granted it applies only to that worker and is lost if the employee leaves the firm…

2.…The other of course is gas work on a private boat or caravan done by the owner or friend/family member ..not for any reward….

…..
 
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This is the only link between the regulations and CORGI, and as such, it doesn't impose any duties on private individuals.

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Wrong again I'm afraid.

Try reading Regulation 2 regarding "work" and Guidance Note 22.
 
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Wrong again I'm afraid.

Try reading Regulation 2 regarding "work" and Guidance Note 22.

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Don't think so.

Is this the bit you mean?

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"work" in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -

(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;

(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;

(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and

(d) removing the fitting;

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As above, this "work" can be carried out by anyone who is "competent". The requirement for work to be carried out by CORGI registered people is ONLY where regulation 3(3) applies, as above.

I haven't got GN22 so I don't know what it says. I have, however read the HSE Approved Code of Practice and Guidance to the regulations (L56) - the definitive interpretation of these regulations - and that is quite explicit in explaining matters as I have previously described - You must be competent to do the work yourself, but don't need to be CORGI registered- no interpretation is required.

To Uncle Albert: No, I'm not confusing my point with the exclusions you cite (most these are in regulation 2(5), including the exclusion for pleasure boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif - 2(5)(c)).

Nobody who has been CORGI trained will ever agree with me on this, because CORGI themselves adopt the attitude that "you must be CORGI to work on gas" (OK, 99% of the time, that's going to be the case).

If you want to check it for yourselves from the definitive source, beg, steal, or borrow a copy of the AcoP to the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations:1998 - HSE publication L56.

(Or if you're really keen, and bored, go back 2 or 3 years in the Lounge (I think) where I posted the relevant section of the AcoP verbatim, in a similar discussion involving Uncle Albert & myself.)

Can we move on?

Andy
 
Why only one? Corgi or Capita, it makes no difference.

So long as whoever's doing it has a monopoly, the service will be bad and expensive.
 
Should be run the same as the MOT and ISO Quality Certificates, i.e. a number of bodies/organsisation can put the Gas Engineer to the test and provide a Certificate of Competence. Retested on a regular basis and no regular fees to one body.
 
I think there is a real problem in the certification of mechanics to work on gas, the system has become both over bureaucratic and over costly. This has allowed those who hold certification to effectively hold a loaded gun at the head of Joe Public and has resulted in situations where there are no local qualified mechanics because the cost of recertification is not justified by the level of business available.

Yes gas mechanics/fitters should understand how to carry their work out safely, but there are no such certification systems for many who do work for us that could have equal impact on our safety. Yet they have now extended this to those who do electrical work on the basis of saving some 10 lives a year, but we still alow carnage on the roads and almost every one complains about the slightest cotrol over car use.

I think we have lost the plot somewhere here.
 
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carnage on the roads and almost every one complains about the slightest cotrol over car use

[/ QUOTE ] Good heavens you'll be wanting driving licences and driving tests to be made compulsory next.
 
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carnage on the roads and almost every one complains about the slightest cotrol over car use

[/ QUOTE ] Good heavens you'll be wanting driving licences and driving tests to be made compulsory next.

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And a corgi certified man with a red flag walking in front of the vehicle to prevent acidents
 
I think it would be advisable to get all gas work done on your boat fairly soon, or at least buy some flexi gas pipe marked with '2008' before they try and outlaw people doing their own gas pipe work completely. ( I know they are already extorting inland waterways boats )

Just wait until you wont be able to do any electrical work on your own boat !!
 
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I haven't got GN22 so I don't know what it says. I have, however read the HSE Approved Code of Practice and Guidance to the regulations (L56)

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If you have a copy of L56 then GN22 is on page 14.

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"you must be CORGI to work on gas"

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I am a RGI and I don't necessarily agree with that statement. However I do agree with the requirement for all who work on gas to be competent. Regretfully the word "competent" is very similar to the word "reasonable" in the legal sense ie being wide open to interpretation.

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Should be run the same as the MOT and ISO Quality Certificates, i.e. a number of bodies/organsisation can put the Gas Engineer to the test and provide a Certificate of Competence. Retested on a regular basis and no regular fees to one body.

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Well said that man /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. Could not agree more.

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I think there is a real problem in the certification of mechanics to work on gas, the system has become both over bureaucratic and over costly.

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You are so right. There are many engineers who no longer wish to work on gas because of exactly those reasons. Unfortunately this has led to a shortage of good engineers and therefore prices go up in accordance with market conditions.

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And a corgi certified man with a red flag walking in front of the vehicle to prevent acidents

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Sorry, outside our remit - not gas related. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Have Tony Blair's mates Capita ever completed a project that worked yet?

Was it not Capita that completely messed up:
1. The Passport Office
2. The Criminal Records Office
3. The NHS computer system
4. Numerous faulty systems pushed into County Councils and other LAs.
And provided the spark and were set to undertake the national identity card scheme too?
I would love to hear that they had a project that was sucessful.
 
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Yes gas mechanics/fitters should understand how to carry their work out safely, but there are no such certification systems for many who do work for us that could have equal impact on our safety. Yet they have now extended this to those who do electrical work on the basis of saving some 10 lives a year, but we still alow carnage on the roads and almost every one complains about the slightest cotrol over car use.



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You've triggered my bollocks detector!

I have sympathy with the "lost the plot" concept but the description of carnage on the roads is the sort of cr*p I would expect from brake or foe or one of the other lentil eating sandal wearing groups of sociology lecturers (I enjoyed that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

The UK death rate is about 500k per annum. Of these, the BMJ reckon that 30k are from using pot (surprised me too!), 10k are breast cancer, 10 k are avoidable medical deaths (mrsa etc) 15k are from alcohol and roughly a similar number are suicides. Road deaths are 3k per annum.

Given that our lives depends on transport and the huge numbers of people moving about, 3k per annum strikes me as very good and an acceptable loss. No way can it sensible be descibed as "carnage".
 
As an illustration of the attitude of some Corgi practicioners, I once asked a plumber to come and give me an estimate for a new boiler. He came and saw that the outer white painted cover was missing from the boiler. "Whose removed that" he said. "Me " said I. "Will have to report you to Corgi" he said "and I might have to come back and turn off your gas supply".

I think you can imagine that the rest of the conversation became colourful.

Corgi told him that anything I did to my system in my own house was nothing to do with them. The plumber was surprised when his quote didnt get him the work.

They do say that any power corrupts, but when you give exclusive control over a limited area to the oiks of this world, it will sometimes get used in a stupid way.
 
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Yes gas mechanics/fitters should understand how to carry their work out safely, but there are no such certification systems for many who do work for us that could have equal impact on our safety. Yet they have now extended this to those who do electrical work on the basis of saving some 10 lives a year, but we still alow carnage on the roads and almost every one complains about the slightest cotrol over car use.



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You've triggered my bollocks detector!

I have sympathy with the "lost the plot" concept but the description of carnage on the roads is the sort of cr*p I would expect from brake or foe or one of the other lentil eating sandal wearing groups of sociology lecturers (I enjoyed that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

The UK death rate is about 500k per annum. Of these, the BMJ reckon that 30k are from using pot (surprised me too!), 10k are breast cancer, 10 k are avoidable medical deaths (mrsa etc) 15k are from alcohol and roughly a similar number are suicides. Road deaths are 3k per annum.

Given that our lives depends on transport and the huge numbers of people moving about, 3k per annum strikes me as very good and an acceptable loss. No way can it sensible be descibed as "carnage".

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As you rightly point ou allthings are comparative, and in this case I was in particular refering to the introduction of CORGI like regualations for work on household electrics and the number of deaths that was supposed to save, less than 10 compared with the lack of action on road deaths. All your comments do is make the action on certification of electrical work even more ridiculous that I intended.
 
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