Headsails conundrum

[Frogmogman]

Have younever sailed with a quality jib/genoa with a foam luff to help preserve sail shape when reefed? Simple, effective, less windage - and least work when sailing, with easy tacking and no foredeck trips.
Foam luff and decent sail is a world different from a baggy old style genoa.

Particularly where the sail is made from one of the modern stretch-resistant materials.

 

[zoidberg]

I don't recall sailing with a foam-luffed genoa, but it is likely. What is certain that I didn't own or maintain one.
Two sailmakers I've queried recently about sails did not take me down that path and when the words were mentioned, one just shook his head.

Here's the question - Is a foam-luffed but 'reefing' 115% genoa efficient in light breeze 2-8kts? Is it still efficient 18-28kts? Above 28kts....?
Beyond that - then what?

As I understand the mechanics of it, one needs lightweight sailcloth to 'fill and fly' in light airs. One needs stronger therefore heavier weight of sailcloth in heavy airs. Perhaps some fabrics have a wider spectrum of usage than others, but the principle is maintained - surely. Beyond the strength and longevity issues, I cannot see how one can turn a 'deep camber' sail into a 'flat camber' sail simply by rolling some of it away.

And I cannot see how rolling a genoa around a thick foam luff insert produces LESS windage or - to give it its proper description - 'turbulent aerodynamic drag'.

 

[Supertramp]

I would say Frogman has identified and addressed the key subtleties.
I had slutter on my last boat - standard fitment and I moved the staysail foot forward until the stay was parallel to the forestay. Better
The sheets need thinking about ( Frogman,above)
And even then, running backs would have been a sensible option.
One or two sister ships fitted twin roller furlers and swore by them , not at them. Ha ha . And put up with the tacking hassle
Yena , Rustler 36, on YouTube nailed it perfectly .
My sail balance ideas and execution are on the owners site but you’d have to register and log in ( free though ?) . Yena and I both independently arrived at the ‘correct’ arrangement for sail plan ..

But quite honestly at 27 feet wouldn’t it be better to have the quality roller furler single headsail?

I had a 26 ft ( that became a slightly better 28 )and it was sporty and twitchy and fat but easy with wind vane and autopilot to head off downwind and drop the hank on 150 and run up a hank on 110 jib then working job on the single forestay and the boat behaved beautifully . “Just so” sail balance…

Remember when we all used to change headsails that way and got quite deft at doing it??

Well put. I think the art of balancing the sails and boat to wind and conditions is fading in the face of simple rigs and autopilots. Explains why some boats are covered in bits of rope and rigging and others are bare.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I used to own a Vancouver 27 a true cutter rig and the combination of a furling jib and the staysail which I fitted with a down haul originally gave a sail plan that could work in any conditions with no need to venture on the foredeck. I eventually dispensed with the down haul as with jackstays and decent side decks moving up to the staysail which was stowed in a bag was no problem. It could be left on the foredeck though with the sheets tight ready for hoisting and was strong enough for a storm jib should the jib be completely furled. I never saw the reason to mount it on roller reefing furler

 

[Kelpie]

I don't recall sailing with a foam-luffed genoa, but it is likely. What is certain that I didn't own or maintain one.
Two sailmakers I've queried recently about sails did not take me down that path and when the words were mentioned, one just shook his head.

Here's the question - Is a foam-luffed but 'reefing' 115% genoa efficient in light breeze 2-8kts? Is it still efficient 18-28kts? Above 28kts....?
Beyond that - then what?

As I understand the mechanics of it, one needs lightweight sailcloth to 'fill and fly' in light airs. One needs stronger therefore heavier weight of sailcloth in heavy airs. Perhaps some fabrics have a wider spectrum of usage than others, but the principle is maintained - surely. Beyond the strength and longevity issues, I cannot see how one can turn a 'deep camber' sail into a 'flat camber' sail simply by rolling some of it away.

And I cannot see how rolling a genoa around a thick foam luff insert produces LESS windage or - to give it its proper description - 'turbulent aerodynamic drag'.

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, yes the foam luff flattens the sail. There is more foam at the mid point where the camber is greatest.
And yes it does produce drag and turbulence, so even with a foam luff a reefed sail is not as good as a correctly sized one. But it's better than not having the foam.

 

[Bobc]

I recently sailed a boat with a Yankee and a staysail, and it was a complete PITA and not very fast either. My advice to the owner when I got off was to ditch the lot a d put a 120% genoa on it.

 

[Blueboatman]

I differentiate between 'roller furling' and 'roller reefing' headsails. In my book a roller-reefed genoa will not do the job of a heavy-weather staysail and, if one tries for more than a few minutes, that genoa won't do the job of a genoa again either.

I really do understand those views, Blueboatman and F'M'man, and I'm certainly not closed to them. However, needs and priorities change with time. You'all likely don't have my arthritic knackered knees and shoulder.....

Changing headsails the old way was just fine for some decades, and would still be a KISS preference for gentle weather, but nowadays the prospect of clinging onto a bucking, sea-swept foredeck by my remaining teeth and eyebrows, at night in rising wind and seas, while I wrestle with a violently-thrashing genoa which will NOT go back into its bag, has become undesirable. 'Working the foredeck' in all weathers is, for me, now rather more hazardous than it used to be, and I've decided I need to address that issue.

My solution is to have two furling headsails on two stays. It's perhaps not optimum, but then nor am I.

Indeed
Whatever works
Maybe one day you can get to try a junk rig . Slippers and all, changing sail area from standing in the companionway , pulling little pieces of string , no sails flogging, no sailing in yer ear.. but not sailing to windward quite as fast either ??

 

[Neeves]

Most people don't 'sail' in 2-8 knots (that's what the auxiliary engine is for) so few people (unless you race) have any experience of sailing in 2-8 knots. But if 2-8 knots is part of your specific equation then a 115% Genoa is going to be desperately frustrating and you need a 150% Genoa (which will be useful in stronger winds on a reach). Unless there are some form of Class rule - forget the idea of the 115% Genoa - and focus on something (much) bigger.

But part of your equation must be - how frequent is the wind going to be 2-8 knots (or a reach upto 20 knots) - if often then you definitely need that 150% Genoa.

Sailing in 2-8 knots is hard work as to keep the yacht moving you will need to hand steer - and concentrate.

You will need to compromise but it should be possible to have a Genoa designed round 2- (say) 14 knots at which time you will need to decide to roll away the Genoa and use the sail you chose on one of the inner stays. You can increase the performance of the Genoa by having a means to tighten the luff (simple block and tackle, today I am sure you would use LFRs) - a headsail Cunningham). You will need the similar Cunningham on your next sail (once the wind is over, my nominal, 14 knots). It can be the same Cunningham - they are not difficult to move if you plan accordingly.

As Supertramp points out - you will have more than the usual amount of string.

I concur with Fr J Hackett or some variant of.

I'd consider options for a head sail, my 150% Genoa, that can be easily removed - dyneema luff, furl round its own luff, dyneema halyard - crank to point. I would not want a furled headsail (150%) if the wind was 50 knots.

Jonathan

 

[Praxinoscope]

#28 strangely enough virtually every race we have had this year including our 3 day regatta we have had wind strengths on average of about 5 - 8 kts, lowest recorded wind speed was 1.5 kts and one one race only did we ever see above 10 kts, for about 40% of the race.
Agreed trying to keep the boat moving and not losing concentration is really hard work.
Looks like we are back to light winds again for the next week.

 

[Neeves]

If you have a need for a decent number of LFRs - of the same size then sadly buying from China is the way to go.

I've been looking at a novel sailing application and have talked with this company (Flying Tiger) R7x5,R10x7,R14x10 Anodize Ptfe Rope Glide Ferrule Custom Aluminium Low Friction Ring - Buy Low Friction Ring,Aluminium Low Friction Ring,Low Friction Rope Glide Ring Product on Alibaba.com - who seem to be top end of the market. They will custom make but did not have stock of what I wanted but I would use them if my trials are a success. I have previously had 2 part threaded stainless LFRs made in Shanghai (they are now made by Viking Anchor in Ukraine)


and bought a pack of samples from the company that make for Ronstan, in Guangzhou. The ones I wanted are much bigger than one seen on most yachts - and are due to arrive at the end of August.

For one or 4 units - buy from your chandler - but if you need that decent number - compare the prices.

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

I don't recall sailing with a foam-luffed genoa, but it is likely. What is certain that I didn't own or maintain one.
Two sailmakers I've queried recently about sails did not take me down that path and when the words were mentioned, one just shook his head.

Here's the question - Is a foam-luffed but 'reefing' 115% genoa efficient in light breeze 2-8kts? Is it still efficient 18-28kts? Above 28kts....?
Beyond that - then what?

As I understand the mechanics of it, one needs lightweight sailcloth to 'fill and fly' in light airs. One needs stronger therefore heavier weight of sailcloth in heavy airs. Perhaps some fabrics have a wider spectrum of usage than others, but the principle is maintained - surely. Beyond the strength and longevity issues, I cannot see how one can turn a 'deep camber' sail into a 'flat camber' sail simply by rolling some of it away.

And I cannot see how rolling a genoa around a thick foam luff insert produces LESS windage or - to give it its proper description - 'turbulent aerodynamic drag'.

Might be helpful if you told us what type of 27 footer the boat is. As the optimum rig will depend quite a bit from the boat.

Also, per post #5, what type of sailing you are preparing for - specifically going deep ocean sailing (well beyond any useful forecasts), or coastal sailing that most of us do (including things like 2-3 day sea crossings to Norway, Spain etc, which are well within modern forecasting ability).

Don't know what sailmakers “shook their heads” at fitting a foam luff, as most I know of fit them as near standard (some used tapered rope instead of foam). Certainly our North Sails jib has a foam luff, and they know a bit about efficient sails.

We regularly tack upwind efficiently in 5 knots true wind speed. Generally start by reefing the main before reefing jib, sometimes 2nd reef. (This is where knowing the boat type would help - previous boat reefed jib after reef 1 on main). Regularly romp upwind in 20 knots true wind, going fast and pointing high.
Frankly we try to avoid sailing upwind in 28 knots plus. For most people, that is bad planning - better to go a different day or different direction, when decent forecasts are available up to 7 days or so ahead (particularly for F7+, which are generally well predicted these days). The boat can handle it but rarely nice for occupants.
Been in extended 30+ knots true off S end Norway (stayed too long enjoying destination), and ended up close reaching under reefed jib only for a few hours. Regularly used reefed upwind in 20-25 knots true. Sail shape entirely undamaged, and still sets very efficiently at 10 years old and another 10k miles of usage since.
Of course have dealt with sudden temporary squalls off headlands and under hills (up to 54 knots - ouch!). But fortunately very rare, and if sea room generally dump all sail and put the kettle on.

As noted, depends hugely on intended sailing. If heading for Australia, definitely would want a boat with a second inner forestay (but personally wouldn’t in a 27 footer). If wanting to go cruising on a boat not already set up with inner forestay and all the related kit, personally I would put that a low priority. Certainly unlikely to be faster upwind than a similar boat with a decent laminate jib on a furler (unless something like an Open 60 designed for this from the outset). But each to their own.

 

[Neeves]

I have to assume the OP is looking at something more ambitious than many envisage. He is talking of 3 reefs and a storm jib - and you don't need any of this if you are sailing across Biscay, in the Med, round Britain, across to Norway - forecasts are sufficient to allow you to make these passages without the need for the 3 reefs and the storm jib - they might be sensible additions - but not necessary. The OP has a yacht of a not uncommon size. He seems to suggest he has no financial constraints - but then again - everyone has financial constraints. If the ideas were obvious he would have conjured with them already. We know he has talked to sail makers - and the rejection of the foam luff might be because the sailmakers were given a bit more detail - and their ideas take the intended usage into account.

How many people here have used a storm jib - in anger? I'm assuming the 3rd reef is a monster - how many have a monster 3rd reef - and use it.

Recall we sail a cat.

Our 3rd reef reduces the main by 75% - primarily because I could not envisage using a trysail - single handed. We use our 3rd reef frequently - its easy to 'apply' much more difficult to shake out. We had an inner forestay added when the catamaran was built, Highfield lever (which we leave installed - more mast support), our storm jib fits on the inner forestay, hanks. If the forecast is iffy we remove the 150% Genoa and replace with a self tacking jib, about the size of a No4 - but removing a 35^2m sail is not a bundle of laughs and the OP's thread implies he has appreciated the problems. The self tacking jib is a complete waste of time in winds under 20 knots true - its too small and too flat - but perfect over 30 knots, or 55 knots when reaching with 3 reefs. For winds under 10 knots we have a 45^2m unstayed Mylar headsail, furled round its own dyneema anti torque luff, dyneema halyard - cranked right up the closer we get to sailing hard on the wind - which can be furled, dropped and stored - easily. We will carry it to 30 knots off the wind. Its on a bow sprit. The only note of caution - halyards have a finite lifespan - if you are not very careful - do not hold on a clutch, you will strip the cover.

A problem with defining the yacht, the rig, the intended cruise is that it can confine discussion. Leaving it open is frustrating for us - but does allow a free flow of ideas. Maybe as the thread develops - the OP will be a bit more open, or not.

As it stands - you can throw any idea into the mix and from that idea something new might grow.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

This is all good stuff!

I've done my share of 'keeping sailing' in the light stuff..... from dinghies to Edwardian schooners to lightweight trimarans ( and heavy cats, too ). I'm not 'most people' - if the boat is moving and there's steerage, most times I'll keep sailing. Not in a hurry to get back into a Sunday traffic jam on the A38/A303..... I've sat 4 miles south of Bishop Rock for >18 hours, in a truly mirror-flat calm, waiting for the breeze. Solo, and perfectly content just to be there, afloat, in my boat.

And don't mock the modern junk rig, or I'll set Roger Taylor on you! His voyages in 'MingMing' are legend. Then there's 'Jester' and the True Believers....

I have HAD to sail e.g. a heavy-ish draggy Rival34, in and out of awkward places, on several occasions, sans engine. Hobson's choice. Lightish breeze. Dinghy techniques such as 'holding the jib sheets / topping lift up to keep the sails from collapsing', 'keep her leaned 10 degrees and don't move about', 'keep enough way on so as always able to tack'.....

The 'project' boat under discussion is a Marcon Cutlass27 ( details here - Cutlass 27 ). I've crossed Biscay 4 times, been around Britain, and around the Fastnet Light half a dozen times, and know full well that 'storm conditions' do occur in those waters - as any reader of Yachting Monthly/World/'Heavy Weather Sailing' ( any edition ) will know - and that heavy tumbling seas quite large enough to knock down any sub-30' boat can be encountered in any of the seas and island groups around the UK..... and off the bottom of Norway, too. This boat has a nominal ballast ratio of 50%.

As a one-time pro air nav, I know full well that weather forecasts have improved markedly from last century - but not well enough yet for me to stake my life on them. So this boat will be equipped as best I can to cope with serious, perhaps prolonged, heavy weather should I and/or the forecasters miss a trick. As we do.

The new mainsail has 3 substantial reefs, and is fully-battened with Selden OWS sliders. I happen to have a suitable, mint-fresh storm jib, so I shall find a space for it AND a viable means of setting. With the 3rd reef in and storm jib - or perhaps flattened staysail - set, she should then be well balanced enough to suit the windvane in heavy air.