Headsails conundrum

[zoidberg]

I'm 'furbing a 27' masthead sloop and intend to fit an inner stay up at '95%I' and tack point about 65cm aft of the headstay. That's not quite parallel....

I'm following the discussions/arguments on other forums re the respective merits of 'Jib topsail plus 105% staysail', '115% genoa plus 105% staysail' and '120% genoa plus Solent self-tacking jib'. There are, as one might expect, many cross-arguments. I'm especially interested in simplicity of handling as the wind and seas pick up. Certainly, a fully-battened main with 3 slab reefs.... and a storm jib.... are already available. This latter could be hoisted on its own dedicated stay, or conceivably on the new inner stay.

I'm not overly concerned whether the result is called a cutter, a slutter, or an abomination.... so long as it works for me.

Points for consideration, please. Especially experience with vertical battens in the staysail.

.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Initial thought, won’t the proposed inner stay foul your Genoa when tacking or gybing?

 

[DJE]

Initial thought, won’t the proposed inner stay foul your Genoa when tacking or gybing?

Ours does. With the inner stay set you can't tack or gybe the genoa without furling it. You can set the genoa Ok as long as the lazy sheet is long enough to go round the inner stay and all the way back to the clew of the genoa. At the moment ours aren't so we have to take the knot out of the end of the lazy sheet.

 

[zoidberg]

Initial thought, won’t the proposed inner stay foul your Genoa when tacking or gybing?

Aye. That's probable. Like most such things, it's a trade-off.
I expect to find myself using one - or the other. If short-tacking is involved, I'll be using the inner sail.

 

[dunedin]

What type of sailing are you preparing for? Great idea if planning on going proper blue water ocean stuff.
IMHO a waste of time, money and weight if going coastal cruising, as will just be extra hassle compared to a single quality sail on a furuler.

 

[Neeves]

It is difficult to conjure with short tacking unless you are in a narrow river or estuary - and I'd suggest that an auxiliary diesel might be the answer.

Assuming you are not a purist then the inner stay is for when times are tough and you have all your wet weather gear on and are hunkered down in the cockpit. When the weather calms all the small sails can be removed or furled and you will want to use the biggest headsail you have, 150% seems ideal. The inner forestay will not get in the way because you are sailing in open sea and putting in a tack will be something to look forward to as it will give you something to do and might only happen 2 or 3 times a day. The seas will be benign and you can walk down the deck to help the Genoa through the slot.

You may need to partially furl the Genoa to tack - it depends on the fabric.

If you make the sheets for the Genoa continuous - sew each sheet into a short length of hollow braided dyneema leave the centre of the hollow tape empty. Cow hitch to Genoa. The hollow dyneema braided cow hitch will lie flat and will not catch on the inner forestay, dyneema braid is also very slippery. You can sew it yourself - use braided dyneema fishing line or any sailmaker will do it, neatly.

You could use a Highfield lever for the inner forestay - but having the inner forestay permanent will give the mast more support (depends where you are sailing and the dependability of forecasts). I'd use hanked on sails for the inner forestay and then you can use it for a jib and storm jib. I'd also design a way to have the jib hanked on but secured to the deck - then if you roll the Genoa away you have the jib immediately available for use. I'd do the same for the storm jib (hank it on and secure as soon as you set the jib - but that might not be possible.)

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

Jonathan,

As always, we are in close agreement.

I'll save any disputes or disagreements for a session over an open bottle of something interesting, and two glasses. Would that I could conjure that up.....

 

[Frogmogman]

One of the snags of adding an extra headstay without, say, adding running backstays (and I get that avoiding this is why you plan to take the new headstay to the mast as close as possible to the existing one) is that you may well suffer a lot of headstay sag as you struggle to get enough headstay tension with two off them pulling against a single backstay, so you may also want to review your backstay,

My other thought was whether the additional chainplate for the new stay would affect the practicality of your forecabin.

What is your plan for sheeting this new sail ? Will you use the same track with additional sheet cars ? Worth considering flying low friction rings as a cheap and effective solution. This is what is fitted on my boat, and now that I’ve got the hang of the system I find it easier to use than the track and car system.

An alternative to what you suggest would be to replace your existing headsail with say a 100% Genoa, which could be self tacking, and add a furling code zero type sail on a bowsprit for when you are not hard on the wind. The bowsprit could be removable if necessary.

 

[Praxinoscope]

On my last boat (Invicta 26) I fitted a pelican shackle to the inner forestay which made it easy to release and move out of the way by fastening it to the chainplate of one of the forward lower shrouds for sailing in lighter winds, this got it out of the way of the Genoa for a lot of the time, if a ‘blow’ was in the offing it was a simple job to alter its position from shroud chainplate to its own chainplate on the foredeck and quickly tighten it up.
This arrangement seemed to work for roughly the 22 years I sailed her including some ‘blue water’ voyages.

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan,

As always, we are in close agreement.

I'll save any disputes or disagreements for a session over an open bottle of something interesting, and two glasses. Would that I could conjure that up.....

Disputes and disagreements are simply ideas looking for an airing. This should have been said by the late Eduard de Bono, or closer to, your, home Prof Tudor Rickard - sadly and less famous - you prompted me to dream it up . Rejecting ideas without a thorough discussion - the death of innovation.

I'm reminded Peter Bruce rejected his own idea of a roll bar. I read of the negativity, at the time, and the passions aroused of sail drives, more upto date - carbon fibre would never become mainstream and foils on yachts - pah!!

I'm drinking something interesting now - but its bad timing for you - Merlot and cornflakes are not an enticing mix.

So - next time we are passing in the same time zone

Take good care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

I've considered several options for reinforcing the location of the 'additional chainplate' and the position chosen ties into an existing bulkhead. This will be heftily reinforced as seems appropriate. The forecabin is rather tight. I have slept in there but I expect to use it more for stowage than accommodation.

I will use the existing track, and will certainly also explore use of low friction rings as suggested. There are substantial eyebolts already through-fitted at both ends of the handrails, well positioned for 'twings' and things. One interesting short article is HERE

Several means of mounting a bowsprit 'a la Selden' have been explored. The 'geography' right in the bow makes this problematic, so I'm considering a 'Trogear'-type biped arrangement. I picked up a furling asy-spi for not very much, and would like to use it.

 

[Neeves]

More on LFRs

The publisher is a bit 'off piste' (or at least across an ocean) but the author is also a contributor here

Sizing Up Improvements In Low Friction Rings - Practical Sailor

Jonathan

 

[Frogmogman]

More on LFRs

The publisher is a bit 'off piste' (or at least across an ocean) but the author is also a contributor here

Sizing Up Improvements In Low Friction Rings - Practical Sailor

Jonathan

FWIW, this is the arrangement for adjusting the sheet lead on my boat.
(The black one is the Genoa sheet; the red one is the mainsheet). Apologies for it being sideways, I don’t know why this is so, as it’s the right way up in my photo library.

 

[Kelpie]

On our previous boat we inherited a half finished arrangement- a self tacking jib on a furler on the forestay, plus a removable inner forestay that had no sails to go on it.
I picked up a huge lightweight hank on genoa and a storm jib, for use on the RIFS. We never had to use the storm jib (the little self tacker with padded luff worked well even when reefed well down) but the big drifter genoa quickly became my favourite sail. In fact I don't think we ever flew the spinnaker again after that.

In many ways it was a pretty backwards arrangement but the big genoa was very easy to handle- you could just stuff it in to the bag like a spinnaker- so we could dowse it and switch to the smaller sail when the wind got up.

 

[Blueboatman]

I would say Frogman has identified and addressed the key subtleties.
I had slutter on my last boat - standard fitment and I moved the staysail foot forward until the stay was parallel to the forestay. Better
The sheets need thinking about ( Frogman,above)
And even then, running backs would have been a sensible option.
One or two sister ships fitted twin roller furlers and swore by them , not at them. Ha ha . And put up with the tacking hassle
Yena , Rustler 36, on YouTube nailed it perfectly .
My sail balance ideas and execution are on the owners site but you’d have to register and log in ( free though ?) . Yena and I both independently arrived at the ‘correct’ arrangement for sail plan ..

But quite honestly at 27 feet wouldn’t it be better to have the quality roller furler single headsail?

I had a 26 ft ( that became a slightly better 28 )and it was sporty and twitchy and fat but easy with wind vane and autopilot to head off downwind and drop the hank on 150 and run up a hank on 110 jib then working job on the single forestay and the boat behaved beautifully . “Just so” sail balance…

Remember when we all used to change headsails that way and got quite deft at doing it??

 

[zoidberg]

But quite honestly at 27 feet wouldn’t it be better to have the quality roller furler single headsail?

I differentiate between 'roller furling' and 'roller reefing' headsails. In my book a roller-reefed genoa will not do the job of a heavy-weather staysail and, if one tries for more than a few minutes, that genoa won't do the job of a genoa again either.

I really do understand those views, Blueboatman and F'M'man, and I'm certainly not closed to them. However, needs and priorities change with time. You'all likely don't have my arthritic knackered knees and shoulder.....

Changing headsails the old way was just fine for some decades, and would still be a KISS preference for gentle weather, but nowadays the prospect of clinging onto a bucking, sea-swept foredeck by my remaining teeth and eyebrows, at night in rising wind and seas, while I wrestle with a violently-thrashing genoa which will NOT go back into its bag, has become undesirable. 'Working the foredeck' in all weathers is, for me, now rather more hazardous than it used to be, and I've decided I need to address that issue.

My solution is to have two furling headsails on two stays. It's perhaps not optimum, but then nor am I.

 

[dunedin]

I differentiate between 'roller furling' and 'roller reefing' headsails. In my book a roller-reefed genoa will not do the job of a heavy-weather staysail and, if one tries for more than a few minutes, that genoa won't do the job of a genoa again either.

Have younever sailed with a quality jib/genoa with a foam luff to help preserve sail shape when reefed? Simple, effective, less windage - and least work when sailing, with easy tacking and no foredeck trips.
Foam luff and decent sail is a world different from a baggy old style genoa.

 

[Neeves]

The OP mentioned vertical battens in his stay sail, which I found interesting (as I have no experience and was willing to learn).

Either no-on here has experience (so I am not alone), as the question remains singularly outstanding, or it has been forgotten.

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

The OP mentioned vertical battens in his stay sail, which I found interesting (as I have no experience and was willing to learn).

Either no-on here has experience (so I am not alone), as the question remains singularly outstanding, or it has been forgotten.

Jonathan

Vertical battens in a jib can help get even better performance with a blade jib. But are also a major pain in the …., as needs to be perfectly aligned for furling, and major hastle trying to hoist or lower the sail. Also if sail allowed to flog at all, can burst batten pockets.
Worth considering for a high performance boat, but AFTER investing in proper / expensive laminate sails. (And foam luff comes into the essentials long before either).
Compete overkill for an average 27 footer, unless it is a racer / cruiser such as a J or similar (where class rules may prevent use)

 

[Kelpie]

Have younever sailed with a quality jib/genoa with a foam luff to help preserve sail shape when reefed? Simple, effective, less windage - and least work when sailing, with easy tacking and no foredeck trips.
Foam luff and decent sail is a world different from a baggy old style genoa.

I believe that the difference between roller furling and roller reefing is not to do with the sail itself. It's down to whether there is a foil. Without it, the system cannot work partly reefed because the top of the sail will want to unfurl.