Having teething problems-- any plymouth expereinced mentors?

Carolwildbird

Carolwildbird

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Am I REALLY ever going to be a liveaboard??? My confidence is in tatters!

Memo to self.......DO NOT try maneuvering unfamiliar semi-long keel yacht in unfamiliar marina (which has strong tidal flow at springs) one day after springs.....

ARGGGHHHH!!

Wild Bird has now been launched but I'm rapidly losing confidence.. or rather on the more positive side- not gaining any! We had an eventful trip moving her from Plymouth yacht Haven to Mayflower (with a sail in between).. (for "eventful" read - "its good job I'm insured with Pantaneus" )- despite hiring an instructor to help.

After slightly better day sailing last week, when I managed to get her into her berth, albeit with a lot of sweating, I decided I needed to have more practice, and today I enlisted an experienced (read racing, fastnet/transat etc) sailing friend to give me some tuition on close quarters handling. We've been waiting for calmer weather for days- and today was the first possible day for a while (though i hadn't checked the tides)

I decided he could take her in and out of her berth a couple of times to show me "how its done!.. Problem was he did no better than me- to cut along story short we ended up sideways pinned against two other boats with me and another guy fending her off... ooops. No harm done other than to my friend's ego and to my confidence!

Discretion being the better part of valour, we decided that it was not a good day for me to practice aforesaid maneuvers (well maybe he also chickened out as well, after his embarrassment) so we beat a hasty retreat and had a beer and lunch instead - maybe better to wait for neaps with no wind!

So... hmmmmm... any other "volunteers" who know all about medium/heavy displacement long keeled yachts to come and act as my mentor? I'm developing into a jibbering wreck and starting to wonder if I should go back to horse riding instead!
 
you are experiencing a little harbour panic - don't worry you are quite safe in the marina and unlikely to do any damage more than a scratch or two and as for getting self conscious in front of spectators just get over it -

go down to boat on a quiet day - start engine, undo the warps in neutral, get back on board and pouther in gear and take her out for a potter around teh moorings and go back in. slowly

- best to do this single handed and then there is no one else to blamne if it all goes wrong ....

if the engine fails throw out the anchor when the water gets shallow and phone for help -

stop arsing about and get on with it -
 
Carol,

The first time we took our boat out we had exactly the same thing! We tried to get the back end to swing round, and (with the assistance of a marina hand and a very experienced friend) failed completely to get her to go the way we wanted. She went in the opposite direction quite happily though!

First trick we learnt was which way the prop kicked - starboard in our case - getting her to back to port is impossible unless you have enough space to get some steerage on. Even with the wind on the transom she is tricky to back even in a straight line. A few tricks we've picked up - in reverse give her short bursts of power this gets her moving backwards but removes the majority of the prop kick and you can try and steer her where you want to take her. She will always seek the wind with her transom, so bear this in mind.

When coming into berths - slowly does it - we are notorious for taking for-ever in a day to get into a marina berth. We do the last 100 yards with the engine in neutral - if we need any power to get steerage on its a quick flick into gear and then back to neutral. We managed to come alongside like this last week with 38knots blowing us off. We have, like you a heavy(ish) boat at 11 tons fully laiden, so her momentum carries her a long way, and conversely she takes a lot of reverse to stop her in her tracks (you can't simply slam full astern and stop on the spot like you can in a lighter AWB). Thinking of which - bear in mind the prop kick when stopping her too - in our case I can make a perfect port side to approach and be in exactly the right place with 2 yards to go, if I then give her a little reverse to stop her her stern kicks away from the pontoon and it all gets messy - this is why we do it slowly, so we can get a couple of lines on before we need to stop her using the engine (ideally in the above scenario we get a stern line on and then the prop kick works against the line to bring the bow in).

Lots of fenders too ... a few hundred quid on fenders seems a lot - but wait until you see the repair bill for some GRP work on topsides!

The other thing we have found useful is to scout the area well before you get into the berthing run - we have fenders and lines on before we enter the marina to give us time to see where the berth is and plan once we are in the marina. If it looks too hard, find another berth, raft up to someone else or see if someone will take you lines - any of these is preferable to making a huge mess of berthing - and if you choose another berth and need to move you can always muster up some helpers once your on shore /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Ours is a medium / heavy displacement and has a semi-long keel with full skeg on the rudder so I would imagine is fairly simalar to yours. I would love to come and man fenders/ropes/boathooks while you practice, but Plymouth is a little far from Newcastle! Have you tried going out on a calm day and motoring around (forwards and backwards) in a bay to get an idea of how she handles under power - you can learn quite a lot this way without worrying about hitting anything!

Hope it all goes well - we were very worried the first time we had to berth our boat, but it seems to get easier every time you do it!

Jonny
 
Carol your main problems in Mayflower are going to be tidal as I think you have found out, this is particularly so in the outer pontoons. What Johnny has said is very true for boats like ours long keel and heavy. Accept that you may have to reverse out all the way into clear water and dont try to turn her through the wind particularly if the tide is pushing you back towards the berth you have just come out of, you are likly to end up pinned against the downstream boats. Go out in reverse short bursts on the engine accept which way the boat is naturally going to turn and if it is stern first continue, you may well have to straighten her up a couple of times by going foreward which means that your exit will be in the form of a series of linked s's. Definitly check which way the prop kicks, do this in your berth tied up with the engine in astern when you will see which side the water flows and also be able to feel which way the boat is being pushed.

I would definitly counsel against going for it the consequenses don't bear thinking about, definitly think about the tide if possible wait untill the tide is weakening and with you for your first attempts so that you can motor back against it and turn through it.
Perhaps you shouldn't have left the yacht haven, less tide and more sheltered from the wind.

Good luck.
 
Carol - J H has lots of very good points.

I did a w/e close-quarters-handling course with Southern Sailing on a long keeler a good few years ago and the following points still stick in my mind:

to go slowly spend as much time in neutral as possible, but never stop

understand prop walk

practice in clear water (neaps or slack and little wind ) with a buoy as a marker

lots of fenders both sides

tide is often stronger than the wind

don't necessarily use a lot of tiller in reverse - we ended up doing a figure of eight ( in reverse !) - the boat would only do this one way - and by experiment we found that , say, 35 degrees of tiller would do this . More or less and it was a disaster.

Practice, practice practice - easier said than done.....

good luck
 
Prop walk is your friend. Get it working in your favour and with a bit of practice you'll berth the boat like a Jedi Master.

"Feel the Force, Carol....."
 
Same thing happened to me there (might have been a different marina, across from Barbican but not through the lock?). Even greener then than I am now. Luckliy there were couple of marina guys to shove me back up to the berth in a rib. SO don't worry, s£%t happens. Better there than out at sea, where that keel will be much more welcome. Coming in and out of marinas even in (the usual) flat calm still scares the pants off me much more than anything else so far. Don't worry, it'll be fine and before you know it you'll be far from those tidal currents and all that getting up at 5am to catch the tide.
And agree with the other guys, slow using prop walk works.

/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Carol,

When coming into berths - slowly does it - we are notorious for taking for-ever in a day to get into a marina berth. We do the last 100 yards with the engine in neutral - if we need any power to get steerage on its a quick flick into gear and then back to neutral.
Jonny

[/ QUOTE ]

When doing my coastal course, the instructor said "Don't fart about in neutral, the way to do it is a big burst of power, then whack it into reverse". We watched in awe as he demonstrated the technique. Unfortunately when he selected reverse, the gear selector sheared off! As we were doing approx 3 kts, you can imagine the number of G & T's that were spilt, not to mention a few metres of GRP missing from various boats!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Lesson learnt - put not your trust in mechanical beasties! Nice and easy does it every time!
 
Just finished putting up a mizzen mast for exactly this reason (plus it lifts the dingy engine etc) Depending on the boat it can be worth looking at being able to set a small sail on the backstay to balence the windage. Being able to chose whether to weather cock bow to wind or stern to wind can help in lots of situations. The teckneque of using a burst of power against a hard over rudder to push the stern on way or the other (not so much that you gain way, just push the stern) is my most useful techneque. With practice it will come but everyone, no matter how experienced, finds some difficulty untill they get used to a boat as they all have there litle foboils
 
Carol, compared to going in and out of marinas, passage making is a (relative) doddle in my opinion. We have only had our boat for 10 years, but we usually only ever take her into a quay once a year for haul out. Just did it again last week, and it still scares the pants off me.
And we have a long keel with a cut away fore foot, which means that the bow 'blows off' very easily. I will endorse the comments above re just applying very short bursts of power, and using the boat's momentum rather than relying on the engine (as if you were parking a car).
And definitely a good plan to do some trials in open water - try doing turning circles to port and to starboard, as tight as you can, and notice the difference between the two diameters.
And then do the same in astern.
Find a vacant mooring buoy and practice coming up to it under different wind / tide situations.
Try motoring up to the buoy backwards as well, and see how Wild Bird handles then.
Find a convenient pontoon (eg one of those moored between piles) with a nice large space available for coming alongside, and practice tying up to it. Ideally with different combinations of wind and tide blowing / pushing you on / off the pontoon.
And remember that a spring line is just so versatile - you can hold a boat alongside a pontoon very nicely with just a spring and the engine in slow ahead. They are useful for 'springing off' as well, when you want to leave.

And finally - once you have crossed the pond in a year or 2, these marinas will all become a dim and hazy memory, as most (all) of the time out here you will be at anchor - its so much nicer than being in a marina, especially as you can then just fling yourself overboard for a swim first thing in the morning - an excellent way to clear Mount Gay hangovers..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Definitely bursts. Keep speed low for safety then, with the rudder at an appropriate angle (around 25 degrees, too much is counter-productive in most boats), open the throttle almost fully open and close it again, over one to two seconds. Adjust times and throttle according to boat and conditions. You'll find you've hardly added to the speed through the water but you have greatly altered heading.

Very, very easy to learn and is the most reliable trick in most boats. Almost as good as a bowthruster if you do it in time. Using this trick you can get into most boats in a marina with confidence.

Don't fight a bow that has been taken by the wind or tide - let it go and work out how to deal with the situation as it will be - for instance, encourage the bow to keep swinging to a safe direction by blipping the throttle. When things look dire just plan to a safe and stable intermediate step - e.g. stemming wind/tide - and then work out what comes next once you are stable and safe.

Never, ever, ever, open up the throttle and try to steer out of the trouble like a F1 car coming out of the pits. Bad news. You will probably swipe your stern at the least, if you don't cause several heart attacks meanwhile. Makes you look very amateurish, too.
 
The manoeuvering advice given is spot on.

I liveaboard in a marina, and keep closequarters handling to the minimum - when I go out I never go in to tight harbours without crew aboard if I can avoid it. When I do I request an "easy" berth - saying "I'm singlehanded in a 35' longkeeler, with an intermittent engine problem" is very effective with marina staff in my experience (and I'm one of them!)

I have been told by an owner of an identical boat that a fixed hydrovane blade helps improve astern handling dramatically.

Do everything slowly and give yourself an escape route if possible; learn how it reacts to wind and the prop - sometimes it is a lot easier for me to approach a berth astern into the wind. Many problems arise because a helm is too impatient, which I see most days. I often have to move boats (mobos are the trickiest) with warps or a dory and the trick is to do it little by little - let the wind orientate it, a nudge astern to turn it, sometimes just drift for a minute or two as the boat gets to the position or orientation you want.

Don't be disheartened: your idea of some tutoring by someone with experience in a similar boat is dead right (if only more skippers did that....). Have a word with the marina for a more convenient berth, if one is available - they are more likely to accommodate you if they know you use the boat a lot, and they won't want to see scratches on other boats any more than you do /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chin up /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
My husband Michael and I have a long-keeled, heavy displacement 50 footer. Talk about a bear to maneuver in wind or current! The advice you've been given is excellent and will keep you from having every liveaboard down the dock rushing to fend you off their rails. Slowly, easily does it.

We watched two slightly bosky fellows sailing blithely into the marina last week, all sails up, thinking, this should be a treat; they must be going to backwind the main and jib as they turn into their slip; must be experts. Then the crash resounded from two piers away.

So. Obviously, don't come in drunk. Don't come in too quickly. Anchor out and wait a while if the current or wind is too much for a safe and easy entry. Michael took Sea Venture out alone a couple of weeks ago and decided to postpone re-entry into the slip until the wind died down. Then he eased that old girl in as if she weighed nothing.
 
Hi Carol,

I know the feeling, it's a tight marina. As you saw with an experienced friend it often takes time to understand a particular boat. Some take a little more understanding than others, but heavy is often good.

I'm around in Plymouth most of the time and could maybe help give you a bit more confidence. But the process would be much the same as others have suggested. Get the boat out on an easy day, then play lots using some moorings as reference points, or friendly well fendered outside pontoons (if you can find some)

Strong winds are more common once cruising than strong tides or currents, your heavier boat will behave better in these conditions. If you learn to moor in the Tamar you'll be confident pretty much anywhere, but it is always interesting arriving in a strange harbour and weighing up all the options and conditions before you go for a berth or opt to anchor off, then go in in the
dinghy! Its nearly always an option.
 
Carol,

I can echo the comments re the Hydrovane - we have just installed ours and having the rudder locked in the centre line certainly seems to stabalise her in reverse a little - more managable. The down side is having the best part of £4k's worth of vulnerable metal hanging over the back of the boat (I am even more nervous about marina's now and especially when someone moors behind us on a pontoon!).

I would also add the springing off technique works very well for us - we berth alongside a pontoon in the fairway of the marina (not in a finger berth) and always use a bow spring and motor against it to kick the stern out before reversing her using the prop kick in a tight circle. It looks horrific to begin with, but put some faith in physics and some big fenders by the bow!

I'm sure you'll be fine - certainly hearing everyone else's uncomfortableness with marina's makes me feel better (I thought I worried far too much - but apparently only about as much as everyone else!)

Good luck /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jonny
 
My first post on YBW 7 years ago was also a desperate cry for help regarding manoeuvring and berthing in tightly spaced marina aisles, being blown around, messing up reversing etc. I asked if I was alone in being such a klutz. Sensibly, everyone told me that everyone can mess up in those sorts of conditions, and frequently does, so stay as calm as is possible and to keep a sense of perspective and humour about things.
Good advice that has stood me well over the years. When I mess up I do swear and grind my teeth, but I also know deep down that I'm not alone (however much it might seem that everyone else knows what they're doing, and doing it) so keep smiling.
We also hired two 'experts' to give us some tuition. The first was the bloke that moved boats around the marina, been moving boats in close quarters in all conditions all his life. What a craftsman! Seriously impressive and as Lemain says, used power, but in short bursts. No screaming down the aisle at top speed or spin turns. The other guy was a single handed Atlantic crosser. Like yours, his tuition also resulted in fairly laughable c*ck-ups and concluded when we neatly guillotined off the flagstaff of the boat next door. Mere mortals.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Thank you all for your time and thought! Lots of advice here which I shall read, eat and inwardly digest. This is such a great place for help and support.... and as Jonny says.. also reassuring that others have had issues.

Like a lot of things- I'm familiar with the basic principles (eg prop kick, etc) and some things are fine so far- such as mooring alongside and springing off etc. (mainly because other people have let me practice that on their boats, including school boats- but most of these have been fin keel AWBs). Its the actuality of the very close quarters turns, reverses etc. in narrow fairways with tides that I'm less practiced at and your little tips and hints for the basic manouvering are extremely useful!

I shall wait till nearer neaps, put on the hydrovane blade and steel myself to have another go...

Most of the time I'm really excited about the prospect of skippering my own boat, but sometimes I just want to wave a magic wand and have some authoritive HWMBO take over!

BUT must think of myself as a jedi master in training.. "beginners mind" etc.
 
I have what sounds to be a similar boat and HATE going into marinas, scouting it first is good advice and I often have one of the kids in the tender shoving the front end around like a tug.... quite amusing to the crowds on the quay but very effective and much cheaper than a bow thruster.

keep your chin up and remember that less is more when it comes to use of the throttle at slow speeds if you nudge something often a "sorry" is all you need /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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