Haul out Grand Soleil 46.3 on rails?

[Slahm]

I need to haul out my Grand Soleil 46.3, but I only have access to a rail type haul out. Does anyone have experience hauling out a boat this large without using straps? I am a little worried about all that weight on the fin keel, and I have been told adamantly that I can do it, and also that I cannot do it safely. I'm hoping that someone with the same or similar sized boat with a fin keel(2.2M draught) might have some advice or knowledge about this.

Thanks!

 

[Tranona]

No problem with all the weight on the keel. When a boat is on shore most of the weight is on the keel with the supports there to stop it from moving. Presumably the trolley on the rails has supports to keep the boat level.

 

[Slahm]

That was my thought, although I think I will be pulling out my extra sail, anchor chain etc anyways....

 

[vas]

sorry, slightly confused, so you have a sailing yacht displacing what 12-15tons, you're going to be hauling out on a trolley and you plan to remove what, 150-200kg chain/anchor/sails to make things easier for the hauling?

 

[Slahm]

sorry, slightly confused, so you have a sailing yacht displacing what 12-15tons, you're going to be hauling out on a trolley and you plan to remove what, 150-200kg chain/anchor/sails to make things easier for the hauling?

Well, I'm more worried about the tonnes outside of the keel, at the ends... Also not sure if that was advice or just trying to tell me I'm an idiot?

I will, as I have a bit more than that. I have two spinnakers, an extra Genoa, mainsail and storm sails and lines in there that I figure weigh close to 3-350 kg. right up at the front, which seems like it would stress the hull if anything would. I also have lots of gear in the rear, as I am a live-aboard, and can never seem to throw everything away! I keep trying to live on less things, tools etc., but then I just have to buy them again as soon as I discard! Murphys Law right?

I figure it is well over 500kg if I take out my heaviest stuff. And stored at the extreme ends just to make it worse...

Anyways, cannot hurt, and I cannot get the many people who tell me it is risky with this boat to lift like this out of my head, so I'm a bit nervous about it. Would be a shame too. rack something simply to avoid lifting out my stored items.

 

[Bobc]

I need to haul out my 46.3, but I only have access to a rail type haul out. Does anyone have experience hauling out a boat this large without using straps? I am a little worried about all that weight on the fin keel, and I have been told adamantly that I can do it, and also that I cannot do it safely. I'm hoping that someone with the same or similar sized boat with a fin keel(2.2M draught) might have some advice or knowledge about this.

Thanks!

Not sure I would.

 

[Slahm]

Not sure I would.

I am leaning in both directions as well. I was hoping that someone who has rail lifted this or a similar boat might chime in, which might help me more... Here is hoping!

 

[Daydream believer]

A 46.3 what? there are fin keels & there are fin keels.
there are also lightly built boats & those with steel internal structures carrying the fin which may distribute the upward pressure to the aft & fwd parts of the hull better.
I would have thought that the areas to watch would be just aft of the fin. That suggests watching how much weight there is in the stern rather than worry about loading on the bow. Some wide sterned boats have masses of storage in the stern Plus the engine just behind the fin point.
However, I would guess ( only an opinion) that some have a longer fin,( fore & aft) the hull may be narrower with less of a flat run aft so the stresses go upwards into the hull sides rather than across a wide flat bottom

As for stability on the rails, that should be OK presumably the yard use it a lot & know how to move the boat. What happens once it is out of the water? How does it get to a storage point? Does it get lifted in a gantry or is there some sort of trolley already on the rails?
All that comes into the equation

 

[Tranona]

A 46.3 what?

Read the title of the thread!

 

[Slahm]

A 46.3 what? there are fin keels & there are fin keels.
there are also lightly built boats & those with steel internal structures carrying the fin which may distribute the upward pressure to the aft & fwd parts of the hull better.
I would have thought that the areas to watch would be just aft of the fin. That suggests watching how much weight there is in the stern rather than worry about loading on the bow. Some wide sterned boats have masses of storage in the stern Plus the engine just behind the fin point.
However, I would guess ( only an opinion) that some have a longer fin,( fore & aft) the hull may be narrower with less of a flat run aft so the stresses go upwards into the hull sides rather than across a wide flat bottom

As for stability on the rails, that should be OK presumably the yard use it a lot & know how to move the boat. What happens once it is out of the water? How does it get to a storage point? Does it get lifted in a gantry or is there some sort of trolley already on the rails?
All that comes into the equation

The Grand Soleil uses 46.3 as the Model of the boat. So just that. It happens to be the length as well... It's a 2001. I am worried about both ends, and as I said, plan to remove any large weight from either end as possible. I am (for no valid reason) hoping that the reinforcements for the weight of the engine will help the stern, but again, have no real idea, just my thoughts. The boat is solid IMHO compared to others I have seen, I'm really only nervous because I had a couple of guys with rails tell me I could not do it, but the only reason they gave was it was too long. Which, honestly, seems a bit random. I have seem some really long boats resting heavily on their keel. I am worried about the time between lifting it, and supporting the hull afterwards.

I figure that if there is a problem, it would be at that time.

I edited my original post for clarity.

 

[Daydream believer]

Read the title of the thread!

Thanks for the correction. I prefer to dive in with both feet first though

 

[scottie]

Can you not ask the builders?

until the advent of marinas and boathoist the only option was rails and it was balancing that was the problem
many older boats were long overhangs which had their own problem
I would be more concerned about a suitable cradle
are you doing this or is it people familiar with the rails and used to doing it

are you doing it with the mast up as this in its self will be a substantial weight

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I need to haul out my Grand Soleil 46.3, but I only have access to a rail type haul out. Does anyone have experience hauling out a boat this large without using straps? I am a little worried about all that weight on the fin keel, and I have been told adamantly that I can do it, and also that I cannot do it safely. I'm hoping that someone with the same or similar sized boat with a fin keel(2.2M draught) might have some advice or knowledge about this.

Thanks!

The method of liftout to which you refer is called a"Patent Slip". The cradle involved will have been engineered for quite large vessels, and so , will be adequately rigid enough for your boat. The trackbed will have been maintained so as to give a very smooth ride, with no pitching or rolling when in motion. The side supports and any other members required to keep your boat in place will be positioned before any weight comes to bear on them. It's a system that has been in use for over two hundred years, so the people who operate them will know what they are doing.
Regarding the possible effects on your boat, the people who will have the most relevant information would be a Grand Soleil Owners' Group. If you can't find one in UK, Google and Google Translate will help you to communicate with such an organisation on the Continent, However I have a feeling that the manufacturers will have designed the boat with the ability to support its own weight on its keel, with sufficient margin for the additional weight of normal cruising gear plus water and bunkering.
Patent slip - Wikipedia
Category:Patent slips - Wikimedia Commons

 

[William_H]

Slipping a boat on a trolley on rails was very common around here 20 years ago. Pollution concerns re collection of fouling and keeping it out of the water put an end to most of the rail facilities. Now mostly superseded by "Tammy" lift where boat is dropped into a yard well away from water. It was normal to leave the boat in the trolley for up to 3 days while repainted then back in the water. Not much storage ashore for winter. One club still have a clever arrangement where the trolley with boat on can be rolled on sideways on rails to a parking spot. Like about 12 parking spots and trolleys. ( one set of rails into water.)The trolleys have a central U shaped support for keel with 2 pairs of adjustable side supports to keep boat vertical. Now there are virtually no bilge keel triple keel yachts here. Most facilities are more familiar with mobo.
I have been involved in few haul outs of fin keel sail boats. It is a bit daunting. You are on the boat as it comes out and feel the weight taken by the trolley.
Biggest concern with fin keel yacht is fore and aft balance. Many older fin keel yachts have a fin that is angled aft. (like a jet wing) not for hydrodynamics but to bring the bottom of the keel near c of g while bringing centre of lateral resistance forward. Most trolleys had ropes attached at front and back both sides of the trolley. You pick these up and lash the bow and stern down securely. OP should certainly do this.

Now a very embarrassing story. I offered to help a friend slip his 23 ft fin keel. Somehow I seemed to be seen as the expert. (his mistake) The trolley was at the end of the rails but tide was a bit low and fin would not go in to channel. (tides are small and not so predictable here) Left it there until next day when tide higher. In trying to get boat on to trolley I had attached jib sheets to the fore posts of the trolley then to jib sheet winches. Put a lot of load on sheets in the hope a passing boat with wash would just get her on. Next day used the same sheets to pull boat in to position on trolley and she was hauled up. Unbeknown to me she was very stern heavy and the sheets under tension were holding bow down stern up. The trolley went over as bump in the rails the boat bounced upward and the tension on the sheets seemed to jerk the fin keel out of the channel and the whole boat dropped onto concrete. Yes in recounting it all I wonder how that happened. Anyway a mobile crane was hired and boat lifted back on to trolley with suitable bow down haul ropes and apparently no damage to boat. This facility was mainly used for mobos
One big sailing club had trolley lifting. These guys were very efficient. Tell them what model boat and they knew exactly how to set up trolley. Just so efficient.
So to the OP with a much bigger boat than I have ever been involved in. Just talk to operators and other similar boat owners and anyone else who seems to know about this form of slipping. good luck ol'will

 

[Neeves]

I don't have perfectly applicable pictures you will need to use your imagination.

I suspect this is the sort of arrangement that will be used to slip your yacht. Its common place in Australia. In the UK yachts are lifted in a travel hoist and often stored, over winter, on the hard. In Australia it is unusual to have the space for dry storage of yachts. Yachts are slipped, work conducted and then put back in the water. Travel hoists are becoming more common but slips on rails are still more numerous.

This is our cat slipped. We have long mini keels so not much chance we will tip fore or aft. The vertical beams on either side would be used in your situation to hold the yacht vertically and your yacht will sit on its keel. For your yacht they will have a plank of wood on the centre line on which the keel will sit, the wood protects your keel. The vertical supports either side will have some form of protection for your gel coat, here they would use old carpets.



There are exceptions to what I say and this is a yacht, below, that has been slipped with a travel hoist and it is sitting with all the weight of the yacht on its keel - as it would do if on rails. The one behind has had its keel removed (most of the occupants (except us) were preparing for the Sydney-Hobart race). The mast of Patrice is in the foreground.


The keel, above, is taking all the weight but there are supports fore and aft - but they really are taking no load. I call the fore and aft supports 'Accrows' as a generic name - maybe that's the company that made them. The accrows are commonly installed at a bulkhead. If they feel the need they will instal accrows on the trolley, or from the trolley to your bow and stern.

This yacht, below, might be a bit more like yours. It too is sitting on its keel




You can see the supports to keep it horizontal, or vertical - they are taking no weight, all the weight is on the keel. The keel is sitting on tiny bits of wood, makes it easier to apply AF.

You are worrying too much. You seem to be thinking you are the first keeled yacht they will have slipped - if they are in business they do it all the time

For a yacht the size of yours the chain will weight 100kg, maybe twice that (I'm not quite sure how you think you are going to handle it). The yacht has been built such that it will sit to its lines with that weight installed - if you take it out you will alter the balance. Leave it all alone. The yard knows what it is doing.

Someone will comment if the practice in the UK is different.

But these are the most likely pictures to be appropriate that I have.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

Someone will comment if the practice in the UK is different.

Jonathan

Travel hoists are common, but so are cranes and trolleys, but not on rails but towed by tractors up slipways. The freestanding supports you show would not be used here for fin keel yachts, although common for MOBOs as they would not be considered secure for all weather storage. Ours are either solid welded up frames of adjustable types such as this which I use. my Bavaria sitting on its keel raised up as I was recoating the keel with Coppercoat.

 

[Slahm]

You are worrying too much. You seem to be thinking you are the first keeled yacht they will have slipped - if they are in business they do it all the time

You are very likely right. But I figured I would ask. I thought maybe I was the first! Only ever pulled this baby out on with a travel lift.

 

[Slahm]

The method of liftout to which you refer is called a"Patent Slip". The cradle involved will have been engineered for quite large vessels, and so , will be adequately rigid enough for your boat. The trackbed will have been maintained so as to give a very smooth ride, with no pitching or rolling when in motion.

Oh, I probably didn't mention I am in Cabo Verde. And while I wish everything you said here was true, sadly, it is not.

 

[Slahm]

Can you not ask the builders?

until the advent of marinas and boathoist the only option was rails and it was balancing that was the problem
many older boats were long overhangs which had their own problem
I would be more concerned about a suitable cradle
are you doing this or is it people familiar with the rails and used to doing it

are you doing it with the mast up as this in its self will be a substantial weight

My questions to the builder, at a couple of email addresses have sadly gone unanswered...

I have not approached any dealers, since I have not found an actual Canter del Pardo/Grand Soleil dealer that looks like they have any interest in doing anything except the work themselves. In the past they seem reluctant to give any advice, only service the boat or sell me a very limited selection of parts for it. (Or a new one!) Honestly, not impressed much by that. But I likely just have not found that 'good one'.

I'm in Cabo Verde, and cannot get the boat anywhere realistically until I get it out for a bit of service.

It is sounding more and more like I can just lift it out, and inspect/repair/paint it, so that is the likely next move.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Oh, I probably didn't mention I am in Cabo Verde. And while I wish everything you said here was true, sadly, it is not.

I had a look, on Google Maps, at Mindelo boatyard, and to be honest, it doesn't look great.
Given the arrangements that exist there, if you are lifted out on the patent slip there, it will only be for long enough to have the work done and then re-launch. Provided you have a period of stable weather while the boat is ashore and that that is propped adequately on the trolley I think you will have to rely on the expertise of the boatyard personnel.
(Presumably both you and the boatyard have insurance?)