Has the RNLI lost the plot?

[Deleted member 36384]

.... Perhaps the question should be asked as to why the French operate on a lower budget, would they like more money, do they have good fundraising procedures and organisation especially inland as the RNLI do (accepting that France is a much larger country which may make inland support more difficult. I would be interested to know what % of their income is from legacies.

We know why they operate on a lower budget compared to the RNLI because they spend less money! I guess the question becomes, do the French have adequate lifeboat cover for their coast? If they do, then their model is questionably more efficient (if we agree that both designs are technically suitable), if not then their model of funding is inadequate, their service is inefficient and they are short funded.

 

[chanelyacht]

one screen is dedicated coxswain command, another is dedicated mechanic

the idea is that all crew members can access any function without leaving seat in bad weather reducing risk however slight of injury and that all crew can access info at any time

Exactly.

Add to that that another screen is comms, and another provides access to navigation and search planning.

SIMS screens are not all working the same function simultaneously, as someone would know if they'd ever been near them...

 

[jonjo]

one screen is dedicated coxswain command, another is dedicated mechanic

the idea is that all crew members can access any function without leaving seat in bad weather reducing risk however slight of injury and that all crew can access info at any time

NASA landed men on the moon with less hi-tech duplication. Are there avoidable deaths in French waters due to the lack of such RNLI style hi-tech over indulgence?

 

[chanelyacht]

NASA landed men on the moon with less hi-tech duplication. Are there avoidable deaths in French waters due to the lack of such RNLI style hi-tech over indulgence?

NASA landed a man on the moon with less tech than the device you used to create that comment.

Are you over-indulging?

 

[dogleg]

NASA landed men on the moon with less hi-tech duplication. Are there avoidable deaths in French waters due to the lack of such RNLI style hi-tech over indulgence?

so I take it you would be perfectly happy if RNLI lifeboats reverted to when I started: 8knots, no radar or very simple radar, no d/f, no computer search equipment etc, long searches with very little comfort (eg seats which save crew from being thrown about, bruised and hanging to anything you can)

having gone from 8knots to modern boats with high tech kit in my time I know which boats made the job easier

 

[jonjo]

so I take it you would be perfectly happy if RNLI lifeboats reverted to when I started: 8knots, no radar or very simple radar, no d/f, no computer search equipment etc, long searches with very little comfort (eg seats which save crew from being thrown about, bruised and hanging to anything you can)

having gone from 8knots to modern boats with high tech kit in my time I know which boats made the job easier

Thank you for your public demonstration of your inability to read and comprehend. How did you stumble from my focused comment on technology duplication to nonsense about wishing to wind back the technology clock 37 years?

The resident forum pack of yapping pro RNLI poodles continues to inflict more reputational damage on the RNLI than other posters here.

 

[jonjo]

NASA landed a man on the moon with less tech than the device you used to create that comment.

Are you over-indulging?

Do you roll a die each morning before deciding if you are going to have a pro or anti RNLI day? A little consistency would be helpful.

Do I have to remind you that last summer you were spitting indignation that a fallacious RNLI press release wrote out your role in the rescue of the crew of the sinking race yacht in the Round The Island Race.

Likewise please try and make up your mind about the Coastguard. You strut around this forum randomly supporting the Coastguard or conversely castigating it as a dysfunctional organisation that has gone down hill since you left. Those of us of independent mind reckon the CG has been a shoddy organisation in modern times but concede it has noticeably improved since the dark days of union organised work to rules 10 years ago that illustrated just how over provisioned the channel coast was with an excess of CG stations.

 

[chanelyacht]

Do you roll a die each morning before deciding if you are going to have a pro or anti RNLI day? A little consistency would be helpful.

Do I have to remind you that last summer you were spitting indignation that a fallacious RNLI press release wrote out your role in the rescue of the crew of the sinking race yacht in the Round The Island Race.

You seem unable to comprehend that in a large organisation, certain parts can be excellent while others can be crap. Perhaps you aren't that analytical of mind.

Likewise please try and make up your mind about the Coastguard. You strut around this forum randomly supporting the Coastguard or conversely castigating it as a dysfunctional organisation that has gone down hill since you left. Those of us of independent mind reckon the CG has been a shoddy organisation in modern times but concede it has noticeably improved since the dark days of union organised work to rules 10 years ago that illustrated just how over provisioned the channel coast was with an excess of CG stations.

Again, you aren't able to analyse that parts may have improved while others have noticeably declined. Feel free to back up (with statical evidence) your claim of over provisioning, and perhaps your "independent mind" can tell us all how you know the service has improved when you don't have access to knowing what's gone on behind the scenes?

 

[dogleg]

Thank you for your public demonstration of your inability to read and comprehend. How did you stumble from my focused comment on technology duplication to nonsense about wishing to wind back the technology clock 37 years?

The resident forum pack of yapping pro RNLI poodles continues to inflict more reputational damage on the RNLI than other posters here.

thank you for your polite response indicating that you do not want to go back in time. I am not an RNLI poodle, I probably know more about what faults the RNLI have than you with a son and grandson serving and another due to join as soon as he is old enough. Whatever their faults, they do exist, the quality of the boats and equipment is not one. Gone are the days mostly, of getting there either just in time or just two late because of slower speed, lack of high tech gear, (some of it duplicated as a built safety measure). Can you confirm your level of SAR experience so as to give greater validity to your views.

 

[Sybarite]

Travel lifts do not work in high winds.

Neither does the trailor. They are limited to a wave height of 2m.. (source : an RNLI response to my question). Not much good then in a storm.

In the past you have suggested.

Deep water moorings with transfer from small RIB in bad weather.

I think you may be referring to the fact that I mentionned that the French boats also have 3.8m ribs to enable the rescue attempts to be carried to where the big boat might not be able to go. Of course the specific circumstances on the day would determine when this might be possible.

RNLI pay for Breakwaters and the removal of all large beach launched lifeboats.

I did not say this. In the specific case of the St David's £11m boat shed I suggested it might be more economic to look at the possibility of building a breakwater on a spur of land a few hundred yards out to starboard. But then people would say that the boat might wear away faster if it stayed in the water permanently - ignoring the fact that other boats do - but then I would remind them that £11m would buy 7 - 44' Shannons. (Or, 10 - 58' CTTs)

All this to satisfy you strange obsession that the RNLI are not doing things in a way you approve of. I do not understand why you are like this.

Because, in today's world there are IMHO very much more worthwhile causes that could benefit from donors' giving than say a £92m contribution to a pension fund and paying over the odds for boats where the RNLI have shown that they cannot manage large projects: eg 40% increase in budgetted cost of the boat and 87% increase in the trailer over a virtually inflation free 5 year period.

As to my suggestion of the travel lift I would suggest that people lack a sense of imagination. I did say that it would be adapted eg by having a caterpiller drive and it might support a sling into which the boat could be driven.

Of course I do not have all then answers. However during my professional career I practiced group brain-storming sessions where no idea was allowed to be ridiculed. This often sparked ideas in others which led to innovative solutions. When at Lucas (at the time the largest British company in France) we did an innovative reorganisation - resulting from our brain-storming sessions - which meant that the tax authorities picked up 100% of the losses (50% corporation tax rate which we legally got allowed twice) and we ended up by having the best financial management results of the entire French automotive sector - accolade awarded by the Crédit National. Of course our English hierarchy had forewarned us that it was impossible. Nevertheless the results in France saved the group who at the time were on the point of defaulting on their debt covenants. And saved the group £100m.

 

[Sybarite]

Exactly.

Add to that that another screen is comms, and another provides access to navigation and search planning.

SIMS screens are not all working the same function simultaneously, as someone would know if they'd ever been near them...

I have seen the system being demonstrated. Hmmm 6 people looking at their screens. Perhaps it might be better looking out the windows for victims?

 

[Sybarite]

This I think adequately demonstrates your depth of knowledge about the way the Shannon is deployed.

The moderators won't let my quote exactly what was said when I showed this idea to the crew of a beach launched boat crew!
I think they're going to have the quote framed in the crewroom.
No wonder accountants are held in such low esteem.

Traditionally when General Motors was the world's largest company the N°1 was always a finance person the n°2 an engineer. Funny that...

 

[Sybarite]

Defensive xenophobia, as far as I can see.

I happened upon a 2012 thread on the subject. Comments today are relatively tame compared with the past.

 

[Bru]

Neither does the trailor. They are limited to a wave height of 2m.. (source : an RNLI response to my question). Not much good then in a storm.

As has been pointed out on numerous previous occasions when you've made this inaccurate statement, there are no fixed operating limits

The trailer was tested during trials in waves of 2m, it is not a limitation. It's up to the Cox and the launch authority whether to launch based on their experience and judgement of the risks

And has already been pointed out, you don't often see waves bigger than 2m on the shoreline anyway, even during a storm

By the way, your modified travel hoist sounds plausible on the face of it but it would not meet the operational requirements

It would be unable to pick up a beached boat without first dragging the boat onto rollers in order to get the strops under it. The Shannon system requirement was for a rapid recovery of a beached boat

It would have to be driven through a three point turn in order to relaunch the boat. The Shannon requirement was for a system that could rotate the boat in its own length (due to restricted space at a number of existing facilities)

Furthermore, even modified with caterpillar tracks, a travel hoist would not be safely usable in high winds (as any marina hand will tell you) and I'd have grave doubts about the stability of such an arrangement in soft sand

In fact, a modified travel hoist wouldn't be as good as the old Mersey trailer system the drawbacks of which Shannon is designed to address

Yes, Shannon is expensive. But there is simply nothing else that could meet the defined requirement without significant compromise

I've no doubt that the latest French lifeboats are excellent and the equal of the British boats, indeed superior, in some respects (Eg they're bigger and faster). They may even handle rough conditions better (although I'm sceptical of judging that on the basis of videos alone) but what of it?

They cannot be beach launched, beached, recovered, turned around and relaunched at all, let alone in minutes

The French don't appear to have that requirement, the RNLI does.

The boats are not directly comparable, it's not Top Trumps Lifeboats. The French, it seems, are happy with their boats, the RNLI are certainly happy with theirs, both organisations are living within their means. Happy days

 

[jonjo]

The trailer was tested during trials in waves of 2m, it is not a limitation. It's up to the Cox and the launch authority whether to launch based on their experience and judgement of the risks

This is not a plausible claim, operational limits are typically less than tested limits. A test pilot might be able to barrel roll a Boeing 777 but the operational limit will be under 30 degrees of bank.

The Shannon system requirement was for a rapid recovery of a beached boat

That ridiculous over priced piece of RNLI kit is anything but rapid, a frightened hedgehog could outpace it down to the shoreline.

 

[Sybarite]

As has been pointed out on numerous previous occasions when you've made this inaccurate statement, there are no fixed operating limits

The trailer was tested during trials in waves of 2m, it is not a limitation. It's up to the Cox and the launch authority whether to launch based on their experience and judgement of the risks

And has already been pointed out, you don't often see waves bigger than 2m on the shoreline anyway, even during a storm

Well you seem to know better than the RNLI. I asked them what the operational limits were and that was their response. There is a clip on youtube of another boat being launched into waves (not a Shannon) and they found themselves pushed broadside on by the waves. They finally got off by getting outside the wave zone in reverse gear. I don't think the waves would have been 2m high.

Here it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCYADeobHaI

As for 2m waves along the coast line you need to look at some winter storm videos. And that's when the boat might be most needed.

By the way, your modified travel hoist sounds plausible on the face of it but it would not meet the operational requirements

It would be unable to pick up a beached boat without first dragging the boat onto rollers in order to get the strops under it.

OK then . Build four eyebolts into the hull and use hooks to lift the boat.

The Shannon system requirement was for a rapid recovery of a beached boat

It would have to be driven through a three point turn in order to relaunch the boat.



The Shannon requirement was for a system that could rotate the boat in its own length (due to restricted space at a number of existing facilities) .

Have you seen the turning circle of those travel lifts? Anyway with tracks it could simply pivot on the spot.

Furthermore, even modified with caterpillar tracks, a travel hoist would not be safely usable in high winds (as any marina hand will tell you) and I'd have grave doubts about the stability of such an arrangement in soft sand

The existing contraption also uses tracks so the same point applies concerning soft sand. As far as making a travel hoist safe in high winds it is surely not beyond the wit of man to design for this.

I've no doubt that the latest French lifeboats are excellent and the equal of the British boats, indeed superior, in some respects (Eg they're bigger and faster). They may even handle rough conditions better (although I'm sceptical of judging that on the basis of videos alone) but what of it?

You can also judge that based on the video which measured the vertical acceleration between the two types of hull. In other words it is not just the view of the pantocarene hulls passing more easily through the rough stuff.

They cannot be beach launched, beached, recovered, turned around and relaunched at all, let alone in minutes

Please tell me why you would go to the extreme bother of recovering a Shannon on its trailor if it has go back out within minutes.

The boats are not directly comparable, it's not Top Trumps Lifeboats. The French, it seems, are happy with their boats, the RNLI are certainly happy with theirs, both organisations are living within their means. Happy days

The RNLI are happy. Are the donors or would they be if they were aware of the criticisms?

 

[chanelyacht]

Traditionally when General Motors was the world's largest company the N°1 was always a finance person the n°2 an engineer. Funny that...

That went well then, remind me what happened to General Motors?

Funny that....

 

[Sybarite]

That went well then, remind me what happened to General Motors?

Funny that....

Do you mean when they switched to having an engineer as president?

 

[chanelyacht]

I have seen the system being demonstrated. Hmmm 6 people looking at their screens. Perhaps it might be better looking out the windows for victims?

Which is exactly what happens when on scene in a search, crew are usually topside at that point.

However, in modern SAR, there is a lot to do prior to arrival on scene, especially if you have divergent search patterns to calculate. Additionally, in multi asset searches (such as the Irish helicopter search) an RNLI vessel will be designated on scene command, in which case there is a lot of comms and planning work to do.

The fact that the SIMS terminals allow any position to carry out any crew function means greater flexibility during searches, not less.

 

[Bru]

deleted, waste of time .