Has the RNLI lost the plot?

[chanelyacht]

Here on Loch Ness we have the only inshore Rescue rib based on fresh water in the UK.!

No you don't.

Lomond Rescue - Independent, Loch Lomond
Ullswater - Patterdale Mountain Rescue
York - York Rescue Boat
Midlands - Watersafe Search & Rescue, Severn Area Rescue Association
Lowland Rescue - numerous teams with water rescue boat capability.

I do wish people would realise the RNLI aren't the only players in the game - over 100 independent boats from 60 services also cover the UK.

 

[JumbleDuck]

down our way some of them cant even pronounce shipping forecast area names correctly

And that causes problems, does it?

"Can't make head or tail of this forecast. They aren't saying anything about Wight, Portland and Plymouth, just Woight, Paaartlaand and Plimarth, moi lovers. Where the hell are they?"

 

[chanelyacht]

What mess have they made of the Coastguard Service? Apart from a few old lags grumbling - it's what old lags in any organisation do, I'm one myself - what actual, genuine problems have there been? You know, with evidence? I have had one recent CG interaction, resulting in some help from Campbeltown lifeboat, and it was all very calmly and efficiently handled.

It depends on the area, but the loss of knowledge has been immense and certainly in the old Solent / Portland / Brixham guards has contributed to extreme delays in incident response.

There is also absolutely no doubt the withdrawal of the help from Portland this June will cost lives.

 

[chanelyacht]

And that causes problems, does it?

"Can't make head or tail of this forecast. They aren't saying anything about Wight, Portland and Plymouth, just Woight, Paaartlaand and Plimarth, moi lovers. Where the hell are they?"

Agree that's not the best example.

Talk to the CG teams tasked for jobs in the wrong area (Swanage paged for Swansea incidents for example), wrong coordinates given to assets (one job a helo crew had to ignore the position repeated by Solent four times, given that it's unlikely a windsurfer was in distress four miles offshore from a position in Basingstoke), non-mud capable teams tasked to mud jobs, it's all happened.

Away from the south of England it's been better as local MRCCs have retained at least some of the original staff, but down here it's an ongoing cluster**k.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It depends on the area, but the loss of knowledge has been immense and certainly in the old Solent / Portland / Brixham guards has contributed to extreme delays in incident response.

There is also absolutely no doubt the withdrawal of the help from Portland this June will cost lives.

Is this documented anywhere? I'm not aware that the loss of Oban Coastguard back in medieval times caused any great problems up here, but perhaps that's just my ignorance.

Talk to the CG teams tasked for jobs in the wrong area (Swanage paged for Swansea incidents for example), wrong coordinates given to assets (one job a helo crew had to ignore the position repeated by Solent four times, given that it's unlikely a windsurfer was in distress four miles offshore from a position in Basingstoke), non-mud capable teams tasked to mud jobs, it's all happened.

Doesn't sound good.

 

[chanelyacht]

Is this documented anywhere? I'm not aware that the loss of Oban Coastguard back in medieval times caused any great problems up here, but perhaps that's just my ignorance.

I think auto correct struck, I typed "helo" not help!

Yes, the withdrawal of that will cost lives - I've had enough incidents when I had both Portland and Solent aircraft tasked to life threatening separate incidents to know that if you remove one of the two, someone dies.

The loss of knowledge is well documented - when Solent MRCC closed, over 250 years of experience went to be replaced by people fresh off the street. Portland was around 200 years combined, Brixham a bit more. When Oban went, at least Clyde and Stornoway picked up the area using long experienced staff.

 

[dogleg]

And that causes problems, does it?

"Can't make head or tail of this forecast. They aren't saying anything about Wight, Portland and Plymouth, just Woight, Paaartlaand and Plimarth, moi lovers. Where the hell are they?"

creates no problem for me but to broadcast that there are gale warnings in Viking North , Mailing and SE Ireland hardly inspires confidence

 

[Sybarite]

I find it criminally offensive that the RNLI kept £800 million in the bank while trying to pressurise an impoverished District Council into paying for its commercial Bay Watch service. Result 5 drowned at Camber Sands.

The RNLI should be taken into State control, a charity that claims to be "The charity that saves lives at sea" which in actuality prefers to count its huge bank balance rather than saving lives, is not fit to be called a charity.

The £800 million could be put to far better uses. Instead of offering a free towing service to broken down £1 million Sunseeker gin palaces, how many nurses could be employed if the Government sequestrated the RNLI's dosh?

Just for the sake of balance the £800m represents total reserves not necessarily liquid reserves. These latter represent several hundred million - the 2016 accounts will soon be out to let us determine the exact amount.

A charity does not have share capital - instead everything is classified as reserve. Against the reserve you do have tangible fixed assets mainly property and then boats. You also have large assets in the form of marketable securities some of which may be ear-marked for future use.

However last year i went back and analysed the previous 10 years investments in boats. These represented between 5-10% of the RNLI's annual income. I believe that the average donor would like to think his money is helping to buy boats, not to go into staff and directors' pensions funds which are on an equivalent level to the investment in boats.

 

[Sybarite]

I'm no great fan of the RNLI lifeguard service, but I think that £800 million is wrong. As I recall, someone in the know told us that the "reserves" of charities in accounting cover everything needed to provide their charitable services, and so include the current value of lifeboats, station buildings and other infrastructure.

Yes. See post #68.

 

[dogleg]

Just for the sake of balance the £800m represents total reserves not necessarily liquid reserves. These latter represent several hundred million - the 2016 accounts will soon be out to let us determine the exact amount.

A charity does not have share capital - instead everything is classified as reserve. Against the reserve you do have tangible fixed assets mainly property and then boats. You also have large assets in the form of marketable securities some of which may be ear-marked for future use.

However last year i went back and analysed the previous 10 years investments in boats. These represented between 5-10% of the RNLI's annual income. I believe that the average donor would like to think his money is helping to buy boats, not to go into staff and directors' pensions funds which are on an equivalent level to the investment in boats.

If you go to RNLI website and search for annual report 2016 you will be able to download it as PDF, probably marked draft but probably close enough to the real thing

our station has several million £ in the bank , the donor in the will making it clear it was only to be used here, unless we need a new boat or boathouse (both unlikely in the near future) it will stay in restricted fund for the foreseeable future unless the executors can be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Sybarite]

The RNLI is a World Class organisation and I'm incredibility proud of it!! The volunteers, the fund raisers, the crew etc - nothing like it outside the British Isles and Ireland.
If I die leaving no family behind, I'll happily leave them everything in my will!!

Unlike you I have looked in detail at the two organizations, RNLI and SNSM, over the last ten years.

What began as an idle speculation about seeing how the two compared, my interest was sparked originally when I saw that the RNLI had more people earning more than £50k per year than the total number of employees in the SNSM

Then I saw that the SNSM operated with roughly 10% of the RNLI operating costs year after year. It should be noted that the number of shouts and saves are roughly in the same ball-park.

The basic budget difference is that the work done by paid staff in the UK is done by volunteers in France. In France the largest group of paid staff represent mechanics in the service centres.

I then looked at the boats. In terms of size the French boats were being produced at roughly one third the cost of RNLI boats. Many RNLI defenders got their knickers in a twist telling me that there was no comparison between the boats, that I knew nothing, that their boats out-performed the French boats, that the French boats didn't use jets. etc etc.

Well these criticisms didn't stand up to a common sense scrutiny.

The Shannon boat took 13 years between conception and delivery - which included a significant redesign of the hull halfway through. (They allowed themselves 3 years to redesign the hull....) All those development costs had to go somewhere but did not justify a threefold price differential.

The SNSM's latest AWB the CTT (canot tout temps) is bigger, faster and has a greater range that the RNLI equivalents. (It took about 3-4 years to develop and deliver) It is also worthwhile watching videos of both and see which one passes more easily in high seas. The CTT's top speed is as high if not higher than the RNLI equivalent but does so with half the HP. That says something about hull design.

However the SNSM did not try to reinvent the wheel. They used outside naval architects and yards which had previous experience in building life boats and pilot boats. Thus they did not saddle themselves with an enormous fixed cost structure that the RNLI have undertaken. If there is a future downturn in donations - and who knows what might happen post Brexit - that may prove a millstone around their neck.

My interest in the situation has led me to having discussions with directors of the SNSM as well as with its President. So as to having lost the plot I think I am a little bit better informed than you - unless you can demonstrate the contrary.

 

[Sybarite]

If you go to RNLI website and search for annual report 2016 you will be able to download it as PDF, probably marked draft but probably close enough to the real thing

our station has several million £ in the bank , the donor in the will making it clear it was only to be used here, unless we need a new boat or boathouse (both unlikely in the near future) it will stay in restricted fund for the foreseeable future unless the executors can be persuaded otherwise.

Thanks for the info; I have been on the look-out for it. However I still cannot find it and so if you have a link I would appreciate it.

 

[Sandyman]

Unlike you I have looked in detail at the two organizations, RNLI and SNSM, over the last ten years.

What began as an idle speculation about seeing how the two compared, my interest was sparked originally when I saw that the RNLI had more people earning more than £50k per year than the total number of employees in the SNSM

Then I saw that the SNSM operated with roughly 10% of the RNLI operating costs year after year. It should be noted that the number of shouts and saves are roughly in the same ball-park.

The basic budget difference is that the work done by paid staff in the UK is done by volunteers in France. In France the largest group of paid staff represent mechanics in the service centres.

I then looked at the boats. In terms of size the French boats were being produced at roughly one third the cost of French boats. Many RNLI defenders got their knickers in a twist telling me that there was no comparison between the boats, that I knew nothing, that their boats out-performed the French boats, that the French boats didn't use jets. etc etc.

Well these criticisms didn't satnd up to a common sense scrutiny.

The Shannon boat took 13 years between conception and delivery - which included a sinificant redesign off hull halfway through. (They allowed themselves 3 years to redesign the hull....) All those development costs had to go somewhere but did not justify a threefold price differential.

The SNSM's latest AWB the CTT (canot tout temps) is bigger, faster and has a greater range that the RNLI equivalents. (It took about 3-4 years to develop and deliver) It is also worthwhile watching videos of both and see which one passes more easily in high seas. The CTT's top speed is as high if not higher than the RNLI equivalent but does so with half the HP. That says something about hull design.

However the SNSM did not try to reinvent the wheel. They used outside naval architects and yards which had previous experience in building life boats and pilot boats. Thus they did not saddle themselves with an enormous fixed cost structure that the RNLI have undertaken. If there is a future downturn in donations - and who knows what might happen post Brexit - that may prove a millstone around their neck.

My interest in the situation has led me to having discussions with directors of the SNSM as well as with its President. So as to having lost the plot I think I am a little bit better informed than you - unless you can demonstrate the contrary.

Long been aware of your thoughts about the RNLI & SNSM but have to say ''bloody hell'' that's the best piece I've ever read from you on here.

 

[Sybarite]

Long been aware of your thoughts about the RNLI & SNSM but have to say ''bloody hell'' that's the best piece I've ever read from you on here.

Thank you.

 

[rotrax]

But it matters not.

Both sides of the channel meet the obligation of SAR services, just funded and operated in different ways.

So what............................

 

[JumbleDuck]

But it matters not.

Both sides of the channel meet the obligation of SAR services, just funded and operated in different ways.

So what............................

If there was a huge downturn in income for the RNLI - and I think there may well be when the sailing generations are no longer around to leave them generous legacies - it may well have to learn to live more frugally. It is reassuring to know that there is a nearby model for doing so.

 

[lpdsn]

If there was a huge downturn in income for the RNLI - and I think there may well be when the sailing generations are no longer around to leave them generous legacies - it may well have to learn to live more frugally. It is reassuring to know that there is a nearby model for doing so.

Don't SNSM lumber those rescued with a huge bill?

An alternative model is the Swedish subscription service, which explicitly includes a towing service as well as rescue.

On the other hand, the RNLI seem to be getting by.

 

[dogleg]

Thanks for the info; I have been on the look-out for it. However I still cannot find it and so if you have a link I would appreciate it.

https://rnli.org/about-us/how-the-rnli-is-run/annual-report-and-accounts

anything to oblige: if link does not work RNLI home page ,click search icon and search for annual report 2016

ps do you consider the decision to scrap the first prototype Shannon a sign of weakness or strength in omitting the design was wrong? I know the trials coxswain on that prototype and what he thought about it

 

[dogleg]

the 2 large legacies left to our station were not sailors, most of the donations that fund new boats especially ILB's do not appear to be yachting related

 

[Sybarite]

https://rnli.org/about-us/how-the-rnli-is-run/annual-report-and-accounts

anything to oblige: if link does not work RNLI home page ,click search icon and search for annual report 2016

ps do you consider the decision to scrap the first prototype Shannon a sign of weakness or strength in omitting the design was wrong? I know the trials coxswain on that prototype and what he thought about it

Unfortunately that is the link to the 2015 accounts. I don't think they have issued the 2016 accounts yet - unless I have missed it somewhere.