Has anyone regretted stepping off the wondrous property ladder?

[BradleyC]

Interesting discussion this but nobody has mentioned pensions - so I will.

In one's forties and fifties one hopes to be in a position to chuck a bucket of money in to a pension fund. Otherwise we are reliant on £150/wk from the Gov't (if we qualify for full pension). Now that £150/wk is not a decent budget for the latter years of one's life. So, in addition to keeping the house for later years surely one also needs to be making a decent provision for pension? If off sailing that's a hard thing to do, so are folk going off and thinking to hell with the pension? Say £250k pension fund? Am I bonkers with that suggestion? Cloud cuckoo land?


Rob

I would never say that anyone is bonkers or living in cloud cuckoo land - I'm never that rude! The question comes back to the same point - how do you arrange your long term finances so you can go cruising without commiting financial suicide later on? However, if you wait until you have saved up everything before you go you might find that your health has now deteriorated so you can't. The average person spends 15 years long term ill before they die so if you leave things until you are more than sixty five then you might run into problems physically, even if financially you are ok.

No easy answers - just choices.

 

[Tranona]

I'm not harbouring any thoughts of "beating the system" - these laws form part of the sytem, and they have been in place for a 1000 years because they serve a useful social function under certain limited circumstances. Nor am I saying that 600,000 houses standing empty can immediately be put to use but they certainly could and should be put to use over a period of time, rather than being allowed to deteriorate further. Given the current huge pressure on housing stock, landlords should be required to maintain the houses they own, rather than letting them fall into rack and ruin. According to Empty Homes, who campaign on this issue, it costs on average £15,000 to transform a property from derelict to habitable, and the government has recently made funding available so they can do exactly that, as they recognise that converting existing housing stock into habitable homes is one aspect of reducing housing pressure in England and Wales. They've also recently granted Councils the power to issue Empty Property Management Orders or even compulsory purchase orders if they remain empty for more than six months and they aren't maintained and are falling into disrepair. You can find more information on this at the Empty Properties leaflet http://www.sandwell.gov.uk/downloads/file/3376/empty_property_leaflet

although obviously different councils have different approaches to this issue. Or do you consider if a council uses thoses powers then they are just adopting a "squatters mentality"?

In practical terms 600000 empty houses is probably a permanent feature as there are always homes and other property becoming uninhabitable or being emptied for redevelopment projects. Just the same as there will always be people unemployed. Of course there are means of getting unused properties back into use - always have been and always will be, particularly if there is economic incentives targeting particular types or areas.

As to your proposal to acquire property through adverse possession, just because the law allows it does not mean it is either practical or desirable, and probably not something one should base a liveaboard strategy on.

 

[BradleyC]

Hi

Since retiring and sort of becoming a live aboard - admittedly only for 8 months a year (grand children!!) we have been pondering this issue. We have decided that we need to keep a foothold in the UK market and have downsized. It also gives us a bolt hole for visits back to the UK and helps with banks, health service etc. (we were removed from the NHS a few years ago thanks to a kind neighbour informing our GP that we were away long term)

Currently it is relatively easy to live anywhere in Europe - with reciprocal arrangements, health, residency etc, but I wonder what the situation will be should the referendum result take us out of Europe. 6 months max like our Aussie/US friends- no E111 etc etc.

May make it a bit more difficult living in a nice warm place.

People often seem to forget immigration is a 2 way process.

I have heard nothing about this in any of the 'debates'

Just a thought

Regards

Jim

Really valid point. I know that there is something like 3.5 million people who have emigrated from the UK to other countries and often those other countries are part of the EU. A lot of them are currently up in arms as the government has said that anyone who left the UK more than 15 years ago is not allowed to vote in the EU Referendum. So those people who have a good grasp of the benefits of free movement rights may not be able to influence the decision one way or another. It certainly would change things if the UK pulled out of the EU, and I think you are right - it would make it harder to live in a nice warm place within the EU.

 

[Carmel2]

Not realy

 

[Neeves]

AFAIK you can pick up, or arrange to have it available, the UK state pension anywhere in the world. If you are not resident its not index linked, but the increases are paltry, though presumably if you live to 95 they are more substantial. But if you have a right to a UK pension - it will be paid to you, taxed of course.

Much of the choice of selling up, or not etc is something you can plan for. You have assets, you can calculate what your pension will be worth, you can make a stab at living costs and interest rates etc.

The one area you cannot factor in is health and at 40 that's not an issue (why people have private health cover from age 20 to say 50 or 60 is one of those interesting questions). But you cannot plan to be ill, or you cannot factor in how much it might cost to be made 'not ill'. Europe or much of it (and some other countries),, appears to offer decent health care, though I'm not sure I'd want to be in say Greece and reliant on 'their' English for my input on open heart surgery (my Greek being non-existent).

So - you can cover the financial side of property, no property, investment income, pensions - health appears to be a lottery (especially as you might not be able to fly back to somewhere nice and reliable).

One other thing that strikes me in the thread - the OP suggests this is a family decision - are the children really old enough to make these pretty life determining decisions? For a young teenage the idea of sailing off to exotic destinations, with good weather, would be very attractive and mind broadening - but will it work for every teenager, when they need to enter the employment queue.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

Not realy

Same here. Each to their own, but nearly ten years ago after sailing the then new boat back to London and never going back to my house it was obvious there was no interest to living in a box which does nothing.
Maybe someday, but keeping a property in the UK?? Why would anyone want to live there? (OK, kids, family but even so...)
Philosophically it cuts much deeper, living a life with so much attachment to possessions and worry about the future instead of enjoying being alive.
Not a path many would feel comfortable walking..

 

[Squeaky]

Good afternoon:

One thing I have not noticed being mentioned is the change in attitude of one's partner. I have noticed a lot of couples who took to full live aboard lifestyle eventually had to give it up because SWMBO decided that she did not wish to continue for any number of reasons including elderly parents, grandchildren or simply becoming tired of living without the creature comforts offered by living ashore.

It seems to me that a lot of men are fortunate to have a partner who will agree/support their plans but after 8 or 10 years their wives decide that enough is enough especially if parents or grandchildren become part of the equation.

For this reason I think it is very important to have some place at home for SWMBO to return to when the time comes. I know of quite a number who keep their yachts in some nice sailing area and return to use if for a few months in the summer - it is either this or wave good-bye to the partner and try to carry on solo which never seems to work very well.

I also know quite a few who left the UK without adequate funds or plans for the future and were forced to seek work aboard which means they are stuck in a marina due to the availability of work if they were fortunate enough to find some which defeats the whole purpose.

My suggestion would be to retain any property just in case - rent if possible but retain it.

Cheers
Squeaky

 

[GrahamM376]

It seems to me that a lot of men are fortunate to have a partner who will agree/support their plans but after 8 or 10 years their wives decide that enough is enough especially if parents or grandchildren become part of the equation.

No children (that I'm aware of) to worry about and no longer have any parents alive so, fortunately we're free of outside influences. If one of us decided to give up I suspect it would be me. SWMBO can just chill out and sit on the mooring or anchor for weeks on end whereas I'm tearing my hair out after a few days. At the moment though, can't think of anything I would rather be doing but must admit winter maintenance is no longer an appealing thought.

 

[dnickj]

Hi
just to add my thoughts

we have been working on the escape plan for a few years now - in my mind it boils down to a balance between age/health/finance
we are in out mid 50s and plan to pack in full time work next year and move onto the boat - the house will be rented out
but it means that we will probably have to work over the winter months to keep the kitty topped up
so thats our trade off - the other alternative is work longer to build more funds but at the risk of age/health issues arising
we have very small private pensions that we wont cash in for another 10 years so the house is factored into our long term finances
so in the end whatever you do its a trade off - that is unless you lucky and are fully financially independant

 

[Heckler]

Are you considering stealing a boat as well?

I couldnt believe it either! He is serious isnt he!
S

 

[Garold]

I couldnt believe it either! He is serious isnt he!
S

It's not as unlikely as you'd think.

My mum had a neighbour who put their horse to graze on an unused adjacent piece of land. A bit later they fenced the openings to add boundaries. Everyone local thought that they had rented it it off an absent landowner. Time passed rather more swiftly than anyone realised, and they had a succession of horses on the land.

After what seemed like a short time (but in reality probably the 12 necessary years) they made the appropriate legal claim on the land, and now own the two acres, which is just about to come within the development plan of the local authority and is zoned for development.

I'd never have thought that this was even possible if I hadn't witnessed it.

What's worse, if we were a bit smarter, we could have claimed it in exactly the same way. But we just observed from across the road!

Garold

 

[Black Badger]

I can honestly say ive no regrets, like an earlier post this has been a childhood dream of living on a boat, although then a small sailing boat would have been impractical. Ive sold my pad to finance my new lifestyle with my dogs who have settled very well. I have no mortgauge so the banks are not stinging me for oodles, nor am I paying rent funding someones mortgage. Id say like I say to others if its something people wish to do then go for it. If one is looking for regrets, its possibly not the right lifestyle. I do however understand finances which must be in order or planned to cope with future! Happy boating is all I can say, looking forward to my second winter

 

[Neeves]

One point the OP made was that you need to use the land, presumably for 12 years and I'd guess be able to prove usage. You cannot just fence it off - you need to use it and in the case quoted, keeping horses. In this case that required fences, shed? and in the intervening years the owner might come back - and I assume whatever improvements you did are his now? But acquiring land is one issue - it needs to be a special bit as not only do you need to use it but if the intent is to build - you need a piece of land that will receive planning permission and that's probably as big a lottery as health! (as land you are trying to adversely acquire will need to be tucked away - or have very absent owners).

It does seem a rather odd way to try to secure 'your' future especially as during those 12 years you expect to be living full time on board - so I find it difficult to see how you can live, say in Greece, and simultaneously 'use' a plot of land in say Nothumberland. But maybe that's part of the skill - each to their own.

Downsizing seems so much simpler and more predictable. But it would not do if we were all the same!

Jonathan

 

[BradleyC]

One point the OP made was that you need to use the land, presumably for 12 years and I'd guess be able to prove usage. You cannot just fence it off - you need to use it and in the case quoted, keeping horses. In this case that required fences, shed? and in the intervening years the owner might come back - and I assume whatever improvements you did are his now? But acquiring land is one issue - it needs to be a special bit as not only do you need to use it but if the intent is to build - you need a piece of land that will receive planning permission and that's probably as big a lottery as health! (as land you are trying to adversely acquire will need to be tucked away - or have very absent owners).

It does seem a rather odd way to try to secure 'your' future especially as during those 12 years you expect to be living full time on board - so I find it difficult to see how you can live, say in Greece, and simultaneously 'use' a plot of land in say Nothumberland. But maybe that's part of the skill - each to their own.

Downsizing seems so much simpler and more predictable. But it would not do if we were all the same!

Jonathan

That is the risk you take - that you invest money in fencing, sheds etc and then the owner turns up before the 12 year period is up and you lose the lot. Thats why investing time is research is really important, as that will give you an idea of how likely it is that someone will turn up.

The whole issue of "possession" is quite complicated, but it basically involves treating the land as ones own. So in the case of agricultural land, that could involve having horses on land, planting crops such as potatoes, planting an orchard etc. It is not necessarily the case that you have to be physically on the land all the time, so long as you are possessing the land by say, keeping horses on it on a year round basis. However, if you are looking to do that then you need to invest some time looking at the case law on adverse possession and reading the guidance issued by the Land Registry to make sure you are complying with the legal requirements properly, particularly if you are intending to be away cruising during that time as well. You do need to know what you are doing.but if you've done your research, and meet the legal requirements then, as Garold described, you can successfully adversely possess land.

The other thing is when you are doing research into abandoned properties you might come across for example, an abandoned farm that is registered, but in a very remote location and off grid. If you are happy living off grid, and most liveaboards are, then you might be able to approach the owner and see if they'd be interested in selling it to you. Off grid houses in Northumberland can go for £10,000 (I've seen at least one at that price), and if you are happy to live in remote locations, particularly if you are planning on splitting your time between the house and the yacht, then you might be able to work something out. You could get the house done up whilst you were away, so you didn't have to deal with all the mess and chaos, and just work on it steadily. So sometimes doing research into why a property has been abandoned, might lead you to identify a potential deal that could be made with a registered landowner, even though it is a write off as far as adverse possession goes.

I have to say adverse possession is not a key part of our liveaboard strategy; our main strategy is to maximise the land and property we already own, but if I found something suitable and I thought I could meet the legal requirements, then I wouldn't rule it out. Nor would I rule out buying a remote registered property and doing it up while we were away; you could always rent it out if the thought of moving back into a house didn't appeal or use it as a holiday let.

I must admit I've loved all the "no regrets" posts - it is nice to know that the cruising way of life fulfills a lot of people, and that few of them regret stepping off the property ladder (although some do). Peoples philosophical view of life (eg live for the day or plan for tomorrow) seems to impact peoples financial and other choices in quite a major way, which has been interesting to read about as well.

 

[[2574]]

What if one is occupying property with intention to "adversely possess" but after ten years another forward thinking chap also decides to occupy the land on the same basis. Presumably you have no rights to exclude another from also occupying the land/property?

 

[[2574]]

"(eg live for the day or plan for tomorrow)"

You are so right about that. I'm a forward planner, its in my DNA, can't break out of it. I have more pension forecasts under alternative scenarios than HM Gov't does I am quite sure! My wife on the other hand is a "live for the day" and just thinks "it will be alright". In all other aspects we are most compatible as shown by 26 years of marriage!

 

[Resolution]

Hi
just to add my thoughts

we have been working on the escape plan for a few years now - in my mind it boils down to a balance between age/health/finance
we are in out mid 50s and plan to pack in full time work next year and move onto the boat - the house will be rented out
but it means that we will probably have to work over the winter months to keep the kitty topped up
so thats our trade off - the other alternative is work longer to build more funds but at the risk of age/health issues arising
we have very small private pensions that we wont cash in for another 10 years so the house is factored into our long term finances
so in the end whatever you do its a trade off - that is unless you lucky and are fully financially independant

I have to say this is a really sensible approach and you sound like nice people. The sort of people I would be pleased to find anchored in the same bay as myself, so we could share a drink and a chat.

To the OP, perhaps you just need to do the hard graft for a bit longer in order to be able to afford your liveaboard dream. All the comment about finding free unregistered property smacks of a something-for-nothing attitude which is a bit distasteful. That may not be your real self, the thread may just have been somewhat diverted. I certainly hope so.

 

[BradleyC]

What if one is occupying property with intention to "adversely possess" but after ten years another forward thinking chap also decides to occupy the land on the same basis. Presumably you have no rights to exclude another from also occupying the land/property?

You need to look at the Land Registry Practice guide for the answer to that one. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...egistered-was-acquired-before-13-october-2003

I would also say why bother? It will just create a lot of unnecessary bad feeling.

 

[Bru]

You need to look at the Land Registry Practice guide for the answer to that one. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...egistered-was-acquired-before-13-october-2003.

That guide only applies where the right to be registered was acquired before 2003 but not acted upon at that time (thus meaning you had to have been in possession of the land before 1991)

It's obvious you've been reading up on the subject but believe me it is by no means as clear cut or as easy as it seems to be from the information presented on-line. Misinformation in a lot of cases, even from credible sources. It doesn't get a lot better when you take professional advice either unless and until you engage the services of a specialist legal expert

I'm not at liberty to go into details in a public forum but I've been deeply and personally involved in an adverse possession case and you really don't want to go there. It's certainly not something you want to willingly get yourself embroiled in

Go sailing and forget the idea of grabbing some abandoned unregistered land!

I do, though, quite like the idea of acquiring a cheap off the grid property in an out of the way place. However, I doubt that is as easy as you think it is either. In fact I know it isn't because as I think I mentioned earlier in the thread we spent several years searching for somewhere to set up a self sufficient smallholding and such an "off the grid" abandoned farm or cottage was exactly what we wanted. Rarer than a very rare thing and priced to reflect that (with the exception of properties with serious restrictions or problems such as being within the boundaries of a National Park, an absolute show stopper because they won't let you do a thing with the place)

Forget that too and go sailing!

We are, in fact, right in the middle of stepping off the property ladder right now. On the verge of exchanging contracts on the sale of the family home and the deposit put down and survey arranged on the yacht we'll be moving aboard early next year.

Our financial circumstances are such (due to an ill-advised business venture some years ago) that we have to sell up to clear the mortgage and release the cash we need to move forward. We're keeping a toe-hold in the property market as we'll have an interest in the house our eldest son is purchasing with our help but the benefit of that is convenience rather than financial (now or in the future)

We've taken the "jam today" decision on the grounds that we don't know what the future will bring anyway.

 

[GrahamM376]

We're keeping a toe-hold in the property market as we'll have an interest in the house our eldest son is purchasing with our help but the benefit of that is convenience rather than financial (now or in the future)

Make sure he keeps you on the electoral role to avoid losing your residence and health benefits.