Hard top retrofitting - any better ideas welcome

[MapisM]

From a personal perspective, I wish we had the weather to cause us to consider a bimini on Rafiki, let alone a hard top

LOL, you know you'd be welcome to come and enjoy a bit of 38° N latitude weather P, anytime. :encouragement:

have you considered dropping the shark fins completely, and use a center pole in the back, like on MCY65 and MCY70 ?

Nope B, I wouldn't go that way. You can't see that in the pic, but in the central and aft section of the f/b there is a large U shaped settee around a table, good enough to have lunch for up to a party of 8.
A nice layout that I'm planning to use a lot, so I'd rather not lose it.
Besides, TBH I don't really like that MCY arrangement, whose design is nothing to write home about, imho - and was in fact abandoned in their larger models.

If you take the rear support pole of your hardtop and continued it through to the cockpit deck you would strengthen the flybridge and give a much firmer support for the hardtop.
...
If you want a permanent shaded area, extend the overhang over the whole cockpit.

Ref. your first point, naah, that's way above the level of modifications I'm willing to make - and if there's one thing the boat doesn't need, that's a strenghtening of her main parts, which are rock solid.
Ref. the latter, mine is one of only two 56 which were originally built with a retractable U shaped steel tube, that can be pulled out to support an extended cockpit cover. It's almost completely closed in the above pic, but it's still visible on the overhang border, right under the tip of the radar arch.
That was specced by her first owner, and I'm very glad he did, because it does work perfectly, so it would be pointless to change it.

I still remember the discussion on the previous h/t. I wonder if did bother to lower it in the winter or not???
...
You have a crane and space for the tender up there or not?

Absolutely is the answer to your first question, and no to the latter.
The possibility to lower the h/t and fully enclose the whole f/b has been VERY useful in the old lady, with her huge teak f/b and a lot of varnished iroko parts, allowing a much better protection of all that.
But that's not so relevant in the DP, which has no wood at all up there - thanks God...
Thanks for your alternative drawing, that's indeed some food for thought! :encouragement:

Yup I get your point. I don't love it, but it aint bad. It allows you to keep your low radar arch, and slightly shorten the HT component by angling the triple legs forward. It also avoids having to cut and remake the aft 100mm of the glass and inox frame. You could also cut out the centre part of your radar arch, just like in the Y80 picture.

Yup, overall that's probably the alternative which minimizes the modifications to the existing parts, which is definitely a plus. I just fear that such styling would appear an afterthought from a mile, on a rather classic design like this...
Agreed ref. tube diameter, in principle. 80mm is maybe a bit OTT on a 56 footer, but I wouldn't go smaller than 60, and maybe also 70 wouldn't look out of place. Probably worth checking the alternatives in flesh, If and when I'll decide to go ahead, before actually fabricating the thing.

Not familiar with the scale and shade cast by the roof section, but I'd fit a track for a sunshade on at least one side.

If by roof section you mean the f/b overhang above the cockpit, there are already tracks along its border where either sunshades or full enclosures can be attached, all around the cockpit.
It might be worth doing the same also around the h/t though, and if that's what you meant, it's a good point.

Take your point but I've only taken my bimini down once in about 10yrs of owning a bimini clad boat in the Med for high winds. Providing the frame is solid and well fixed and most importantly the bimini itself is well secured to the frame it should stand up to nearly anything. Regarding a hardtop, I'm not sure I'd want the extra weight of a hardtop on top of a boat much less than say 70ft and yes I know that hardtops are de rigeur on the floating tower blocks that pass for boats these days

P have you talked to your man at DP about this? Would he be happy about having the extra weight of a hardtop on his flybridge from both the structural and stability point of view?

M, I'm with Hurricane on this one - even a well built bimini will never be as robust as a decent h/t, imho.
I see your point though, because you are spoilt by your experience: when it comes to bimini, each and every Ferretti OEM frames I've seen are better/stronger than any other I came across, bar none.
So much so, that I don't think your very large tubes with their attachments are hugely lighter than a purposedly designed h/t, possibly sandwich built.
That said, the answer to your last question is nope, I didn't discuss the idea with him yet. But I will, if I'll decide to go ahead.
I'm not expecting him to be much worried though - aside from probably dismissing the aesthetic impact, if I know him by now...

 

[benjenbav]

Completely left field suggestion here but, if you are prepared to have robust enough supports to cope with a the weight of a conventional hard-top but really want to keep the lines of the vessel, would it be worth looking at having a conventionally shaped bimini constructed from something like Kevlar?

 

[jfm]

Take your point but I've only taken my bimini down once in about 10yrs of owning a bimini clad boat in the Med for high winds. Providing the frame is solid and well fixed and most importantly the bimini itself is well secured to the frame it should stand up to nearly anything. Regarding a hardtop, I'm not sure I'd want the extra weight of a hardtop on top of a boat much less than say 70ft and yes I know that hardtops are de rigeur on the floating tower blocks that pass for boats these days

P have you talked to your man at DP about this? Would he be happy about having the extra weight of a hardtop on his flybridge from both the structural and stability point of view?

I agree mike - I almost never took bimini down and it was happy in 50 knots apparent, possibly a bit more.
I doubt the weight is an issue, if it isn't built crazyily heavy. It will nicely slow down the roll period at anchor, too. Maths = square of the radius and all that.

 

[jfm]

Ref. the latter, mine is one of only two 56 which were originally built with a retractable U shaped steel tube, that can be pulled out to support an extended cockpit cover. It's almost completely closed in the above pic, but it's still visible on the overhang border, right under the tip of the radar arch.
That was specced by her first owner, and I'm very glad he did, because it does work perfectly, so it would be pointless to change it.


Agreed ref. tube diameter, in principle. 80mm is maybe a bit OTT on a 56 footer, but I wouldn't go smaller than 60, and maybe also 70 wouldn't look out of place. Probably worth checking the alternatives in flesh, If and when I'll decide to go ahead, before actually fabricating the thing.


If by roof section you mean the f/b overhang above the cockpit, there are already tracks along its border where either sunshades or full enclosures can be attached, all around the cockpit.
It might be worth doing the same also around the h/t though, and if that's what you meant, it's a good point.

On those three paras-

1. Nice. That's a mod I want to make on my boat. Low down the list and a first world problem but I often kick ideas around in my head. One day...

2. I think builders scrimp, or else I just love heavy stainless steel(!) I would use 70 minimum on yours. My side deck/foredeck oem rails are 60 diameter and they feel right to me. So it has to be 70 minimum for the HT, imo. You're designing for stiffness not strength here. Though it will have to withstand 30cm of snow maybe every 10 years.

3. Tracks are a great idea. I have luff channel around all 4 eadges of my HT. Plus a channel/groove in the moulding, so the tracks sit in flush. This is easy to do even when making a one-off because you just glue a 15x15mm section strip onto the mould face.

 

[Hurricane]

I agree mike - I almost never took bimini down and it was happy in 50 knots apparent, possibly a bit more.
I doubt the weight is an issue, if it isn't built crazyily heavy. It will nicely slow down the roll period at anchor, too. Maths = square of the radius and all that.

Ours has never bent or collapsed but with strong apparent wind, I'm always worried that if it did go, it could damage other stuff or even hurt us.
Our bimini is bigger than most for our size of boat thus exposing a lot of windage - more like a sail.
So, I always "play safe" - in many cases, it is a relief - something else not to worry about when it is down.
We had it up when we left Saona this summer in strong winds - turned and ran with the wind whilst we folded it back against the radar arch.
Then headed for a safer anchorage - a few hours later 6 yachts went on the rocks.
I see the the bimini like a yachtie reefs his sails - you need to get it down BEFORE any problems - if it is too windy to get it down, it stays up.
Running with the wind, of course, reduces the apparent and allows us to drop it without any wind getting underneath.

 

[jfm]

Ours has never bent or collapsed but with strong apparent wind, I'm always worried that if it did go, it could damage other stuff or even hurt us.
Our bimini is bigger than most for our size of boat thus exposing a lot of windage - more like a sail.
So, I always "play safe" - in many cases, it is a relief - something else not to worry about when it is down.
We had it up when we left Saona this summer in strong winds - turned and ran with the wind whilst we folded it back against the radar arch.
Then headed for a safer anchorage - a few hours later 6 yachts went on the rocks.
I see the the bimini like a yachtie reefs his sails - you need to get it down BEFORE any problems - if it is too windy to get it down, it stays up.
Running with the wind, of course, reduces the apparent and allows us to drop it without any wind getting underneath.

A good upgrade for JW and 1/2 way house to a HT would be a hydraulic folding bimini. Makefast make the gear. I had this on both sq78s (although it got removed on current boat when HT was fitted). You undo a couple of "shroud" wires and press a button and the whole thing folds. They use rack and pinion hydraulic actuators, =very compact and strong. The pump is tiny, like you'd have on a cabriolet car.

 

[Portofino]

Completely left field suggestion here but, if you are prepared to have robust enough supports to cope with a the weight of a conventional hard-top but really want to keep the lines of the vessel, would it be worth looking at having a conventionally shaped bimini constructed from something like Kevlar?

Not that left
The XL yard in Roma ,pre Ferretti Itama guys are doing a trade brisk in this kinda stuff .
Ambivalent over looks at the mo
https://imgur.com/gallery/E1HHR

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Not that left
The XL yard in Roma ,pre Ferretti Itama guys are doing a trade brisk in this kinda stuff .
Ambivalent over looks at the mo
https://imgur.com/gallery/E1HHR

The hard top itself looks OK but its a shame that the frame couldnt have been better integrated with the windscreen frame. Having said that depending on the cost it doesnt look like a bad job

 

[BartW]

A good upgrade for JW and 1/2 way house to a HT would be a hydraulic folding bimini. Makefast make the gear. I had this on both sq78s (although it got removed on current boat when HT was fitted). You undo a couple of "shroud" wires and press a button and the whole thing folds. They use rack and pinion hydraulic actuators, =very compact and strong. The pump is tiny, like you'd have on a cabriolet car.

my main reason to choose a hardtop instead of a folding bimini,
is that the hardtop is a good winter cover for the FB furniture and teak.
even more when adding remove-able transparent side walls "canopy style" on that hardtop.

but actually while I' m typing this, I'm reconsidering the bimini solution instead of a more complex to build hardtop.
the project for BA is on the table again, more news to come in another thread.

 

[Hurricane]

my main reason to choose a hardtop instead of a folding bimini,
is that the hardtop is a good winter cover for the FB furniture and teak.
even more when adding remove-able transparent side walls "canopy style" on that hardtop.

but actually while I' m typing this, I'm reconsidering the bimini solution instead of a more complex to build hardtop.
the project for BA is on the table again, more news to come in another thread.

Just to add a comment about biminis - on a boat like BA, make it big - and one of the hydraulic thingys that JFM recomended.
Also make it fold back somewhere - probably onto the radar arch but on our last boat it folded down into the FB itself.
I hate all the S/S framework that you see with biminis.
IMO, they should be easy to fold away and deploy - we often do ours under way.
Just remove the sausage cover and "bonk" it is up - two more straps to tighten and thats it.
I do like JFM's point about the hydraulics though.

 

[vas]

Ref. the latter, mine is one of only two 56 which were originally built with a retractable U shaped steel tube, that can be pulled out to support an extended cockpit cover. It's almost completely closed in the above pic, but it's still visible on the overhang border, right under the tip of the radar arch.
That was specced by her first owner, and I'm very glad he did, because it does work perfectly, so it would be pointless to change it.

P.,

care to explain how that works, got any pics?
I'm about to order side and rear covers for the aft deck, I will get a track all around the f/b overhang, BUT it's a bit short so rear cover when down means that you cannot use the rear seating unless you're 1.40m tall (max!), so somehow need to extend or pull the rear covers aft and then let them go down in a more vertical angle. I hope it makes sense...
To complicate matters further, there's no transom gate, so creating something there means you have to bow from the passerelle to get in the aft deck, else you're decapitated.
anyway, pics of this U shaped SS thing would be handy!

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

my main reason to choose a hardtop instead of a folding bimini,
is that the hardtop is a good winter cover for the FB furniture and teak.

Having lived with it a couple of years I would say the main benefit is the nice feeling of not "camping" and instead having something solid above, plus the really nice lighting you can install for late night summer dinners.

 

[jfm]

I do like JFM's point about the hydraulics though.

Check out www.power-bim.com. They have loads of princesses pictured and on video.

They typically cost £12k. The Sq78 one was £16k + vat, but that was a big beast with beautiful oval tube, double ply canvas and lighting.

About halfway through the video you see a box with wiring loom - that loom includes the hydraulic hoses. They are so thin that they are like electrical cables. Quite easy to install therefore

 

[MapisM]

P.,
care to explain how that works, got any pics?

Sorry V, I never made any pics specifically to that bit of kit, but its construction is actually rather simple.
The following details are taken from more general pics, and while they don't show exactly how it's built, I think they are good enough to give a decent idea.
If you could use some more detailed pics and/or measures, I'm happy to comply, but I'm not sure ATM about when I will be onboard the next time.

In the first two pics you can see the fixed steel attachments, custom shaped to fit the f/b mould, and with a cylindrical teflon section inside to allow for an easier movement of the sliding "U" tube.
The rotating knob in the lower part is meant to lock that sliding tube in its working (or retracted) position.
The last pic shows the thing retracted and with no canvas attached.

The way it works is rather intuitive, I think: you slide the cover inside the track first, then zip it around the tube, before eventually pulling the tube out and lock it with the two knobs - job done.
One clever feature is that the cover has a second zip around its perimeter, meant to attach a shading canvas to it, rather than directly to the f/b overhang (which is how the winter cover visible in the fist pic is attached, instead).
This way, the summer/shading cover goes around the cockpit vertically rather than slanted forward, without interfering with the heads of anyone sitting on the cockpit bench, which is right inside the transom. :encouragement:

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, my rear cover system is not so elaborate as P's, but uses a stainless structure to mount the canopy off the fly overhang. Will try and get pics over the weekend.

 

[vas]

The way it works is rather intuitive, I think: you slide the cover inside the track first, then zip it around the tube, before eventually pulling the tube out and lock it with the two knobs - job done.
One clever feature is that the cover has a second zip around its perimeter, meant to attach a shading canvas to it, rather than directly to the f/b overhang (which is how the winter cover visible in the fist pic is attached, instead).
This way, the summer/shading cover goes around the cockpit vertically rather than slanted forward, without interfering with the heads of anyone sitting on the cockpit bench, which is right inside the transom. :encouragement:

P.,

that's a smart solution you have there! Do you have a transom door? If not, how low is it with the U tube extracted? You bump your head on it getting in from the passerelle?
I like the idea with the track which ideally should be slightly higher than the tube so there is a slope and the cover doesn't get wet and slimmy. I'll try and model it and see how it works.

Vas, my rear cover system is not so elaborate as P's, but uses a stainless structure to mount the canopy off the fly overhang. Will try and get pics over the weekend.

P.,

please do! Surprisingly I've not seen any such system in the f/b boats we have around.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

that's a smart solution you have there! Do you have a transom door? If not, how low is it with the U tube extracted? You bump your head on it getting in from the passerelle?

Yes and yes.
I mean, there's a door to access the swim platform, but the passerelle is attached to the upper part of the transom, and with the tube extracted you must pay attention to it.
That's not bad though, because instinctively you grab it with one hand, before going down from the passerelle into the cockpit, so it serves also as a handrail, sort of...

 

[MapisM]

please do! Surprisingly I've not seen any such system in the f/b boats we have around.

Vas, while you're waiting to see the solution that Rafiki has on his Azi, yesterday I had an opportunity to take some pics during a trip on a Portofino Marine of some boating mates. The following is what that yard offered.
Maybe a tad less elegant than the DP solution, but works equally well and it's easier to retrofit.
Btw, this alternative has two side advantages, which you might find practical:
1) the fixed part of the structure provides a solid handrail, for anyone standing in the cockpit;
2) you don't need to remove the canvas to retract the thing, as can be clearly seen in the pics (with my "U" shaped tube, the canvas zip goes all around the extended tube, so you must unzip and remove it before retracting the tube - though actually I'd rather leave it extended/covered at all time, during the summer).
All considered, I'd probably go for this simpler installation, if I should retrofit it.

 

[vas]

waiting for more pics and ideas, I tried to measure what I'd need to get decent canvas allowing ppl to sit properly on the aft deck, and turns out that best solution would be to fit a U shaped tube, fixed, going all around the overhang...
100mm on the sides and 200mm aft would be perfect to get decent coverage. First sketches don't look bad either, so may end up doing it. Extra bonus is that all sides will be secured on the side like the pic above on your friends boat (Ferretti I guess) and roll around the tube, or under the tube.
Makes more sense as it will be 100-120mm higher than going under the f/b overhang as your friend's does.

enough of a drift, will come back with sketches on the rebuilt thread.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

waiting for more pics and ideas, I tried to measure what I'd need to get decent canvas allowing ppl to sit properly on the aft deck, and turns out that best solution would be to fit a U shaped tube, fixed, going all around the overhang...
100mm on the sides and 200mm aft would be perfect to get decent coverage. First sketches don't look bad either, so may end up doing it. Extra bonus is that all sides will be secured on the side like the pic above on your friends boat (Ferretti I guess) and roll around the tube, or under the tube.
Makes more sense as it will be 100-120mm higher than going under the f/b overhang as your friend's does.

enough of a drift, will come back with sketches on the rebuilt thread.

cheers

V.

Rafiki cockpit canopy