Harbour dues without a receipt? Just don’t pay

[AngusMcDoon]

Yep. http://www.yealmharbourauthority.co.uk/downloads/Visitor_Charges_2019.pdf
Entirely legal. Also entirely unjustifiable, IMO. If brexit wasn't sufficient incentive to abandon the UK this sort of shenanigans certainly is. Does anyone know of another country in Europe where anchoring outside of a developed harbour incurs a charge? I certainly don't.

Strewth. First world problems. Bellyaching about having to pay a relatively small amount of money to anchor in a couple of the UK's thousand upon thousand anchorages, places no-one is forcing you to go to anyway. Try doing anything on a sailing boat on the African side of the Med. You have to bribe everyone to get anywhere or anything done. If it bothers you so much here emigrate to Poland or somewhere in mainland Europe. I'm sure it's lovely and the anchorages are completely free. Both of them.

 

[[3889]]

Strewth. First world problems. Bellyaching about having to pay a relatively small amount of money to anchor in a couple of the UK's thousand upon thousand anchorages, places no-one is forcing you to go to anyway. Try doing anything on a sailing boat on the African side of the Med. You have to bribe everyone to get anywhere or anything done. If it bothers you so much here emigrate to Poland or somewhere in mainland Europe. I'm sure it's lovely and the anchorages are completely free. Both of them.

Yep, which is why I don t go to Africa by boat or any other means. Of course, the flourishing economies of African countries bear testimony to their successful financial strategies. I don't force aircraft to overfly my house but then neither do I expect them to pay for the privilege. BTW, I spend the majority of my time in mainland europe and anchoring is, wothout doubt, superior to the UK, even including the insect-infested, rainswept northern portion.

 

[RichardS]

Yep. http://www.yealmharbourauthority.co.uk/downloads/Visitor_Charges_2019.pdf
Entirely legal. Also entirely unjustifiable, IMO. If brexit wasn't sufficient incentive to abandon the UK this sort of shenanigans certainly is. Does anyone know of another country in Europe where anchoring outside of a developed harbour incurs a charge? I certainly don't.

Errrrr ..... there are dozens, possibly hundreds, of quiet undeveloped bays in Croatia where one has to pay if one wants to anchor although one always gets a receipt.

Richard

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Yep, which is why I don t go to Africa by boat or any other means. Of course, the flourishing economies of African countries bear testimony to their successful financial strategies. I don't force aircraft to overfly my house but then neither do I expect them to pay for the privilege. BTW, I spend the majority of my time in mainland europe and anchoring is, wothout doubt, superior to the UK, even including the insect-infested, rainswept northern portion.

Ok then, Croatia, where you have to pay a cruising tax just to be there, Spain, where water is often charged for (never in the UK), Portugal, where residents have to have a long list of mandatory kit, Spain again, where residents have to be trained & licensed, Greece who are trying to introduce a cruising tax but are too incompetent to do it, south France where an overnight berth can cost €100 or more for a 12m boat, the list of rip offs and charges goes on & on, but you think emigration is the answer to a couple of rivers in the UK charging £20 to anchor. I suggest that you do.

 

[[3889]]

Ok then, Croatia, where you have to pay a cruising tax just to be there, Spain, where water is often charged for (never in the UK), Portugal, where residents have to have a long list of mandatory kit, Spain again, where residents have to be trained & licensed, Greece who are trying to introduce a cruising tax but are too incompetent to do it, south France where an overnight berth can cost €100 or more for a 12m boat, the list of rip offs and charges goes on & on, but you think emigration is the answer to a couple of rivers in the UK charging £20 to anchor. I suggest that you do.

But I have sailed in Spain, Portugal, France and Greece every year of the last decade and have never been charged for anchoring, or required to carry extra kit or be licensed (excepting Greece where I worked commercially and quite reasonably was required to abide that countries laws), in any of those countries. Water, yes, no problem, likewise a developed berth where someone has invested in infrastructure. Croatia is a fair point but I have no intention of ever visiting there for much the same reasons that I avoid African countries.

 

[capnsensible]

Strewth. First world problems. Bellyaching about having to pay a relatively small amount of money to anchor in a couple of the UK's thousand upon thousand anchorages, places no-one is forcing you to go to anyway. Try doing anything on a sailing boat on the African side of the Med. You have to bribe everyone to get anywhere or anything done. If it bothers you so much here emigrate to Poland or somewhere in mainland Europe. I'm sure it's lovely and the anchorages are completely free. Both of them.

Always a challenge here, that!

Have anchored on the Med Moroccan coast a good bit. Also Tunisia, Isles Galletas. No bovver.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

As far as the UK is concerned haven't there been several legal battles with a noted barrister challenging the ownership of the seabed and the rights allocated or claimed by parties that claim to own it. The upshot being that there is rarely the right to free mooring or anchoring.

 

[capnsensible]

Ultimate anchring expensive.

One night in the Galapagos Islands on a Bavaria 48. Authority fees, diesel top off of around 250l, water 100l. Nearly $650.

Went ashore for a drink or two. Got two because it was the night of the Ecuador Elections. Curfew, Police everywhere. And Seal poo.

And the sea is flippin cold despite being a gnats off the Equator.

Great to be able to grumble about it though.........

 

[AndrewB]

Entrepreneurial self-employment for some.

In the charming village of Galaxidi, one of our favourite places on the western side of Greece, for many years a strange old man would demand €10 as you arrived at the town quay, which everyone assumed was the mooring fee. Then he would head straight for the nearest bar. The locals tolerated him but last year he was gone – there had been complaints. “We’ve had to find him alternative employment”, port police told me.

 

[Joker]

"emigrate to Poland or somewhere in mainland Europe. I'm sure it's lovely and the anchorages are completely free. Both of them"

If you think that there are only two anchorages in Poland, then you are remarkably ignorant.

 

[BelleSerene]

As far as the UK is concerned haven't there been several legal battles with a noted barrister challenging the ownership of the seabed and the rights allocated or claimed by parties that claim to own it. The upshot being that there is rarely the right to free mooring or anchoring.

Yes. This topic comes up every now and again. The situation is pretty much as follows (and from memory, so anyone please correct me on details):

• UK tidal waters are owned by the crown. Ie the crown owns the sea bed to the low-water mark
• You have a common-law right going back to Magna Carta to free navigation in UK tidal waters
• In the exceptional case of Beaulieu (the only one I am aware of), bits of tidal water were granted to private ownership before Magna Carta. The Beaulieu area was given to some abbey before that time, and expressly including the river bed. Lord Montagu inherited or bought it from the abbey, and with it, it is assumed, the same rights. This is the basis for the claim that the Beaulieu estate is entitled to charge for anchoring in the river bed.
• It has never been tested in a court whether the Beaulieu estate's ownership of the river bed gives it the right to charge for anchoring in the bed despite the general common-law right to do so in tidal waters. Trouble is, it's never in one individual's interest to take the case on, and it would always be in the landowner's interest to defend the case expensively and to appeal it as high as possible, so as to maintain its practice of taking money from everyone else!

Certain harbours, as the Fred Drift above, are different, since Parliament passed an Act (Harbours Act 1964 I think) entitling certain named harbours to charge 'Harbour Dues' for simply being in the waters of the harbour.

• This is not specifically charging for anchoring - just for being there. So it is not subject to being challenged as being contrary to previous common-law rights.
• As it is primary legislation - our Parliament can (and should!) enact what it wants - it completely changes the legal picture.
• Yes, Parliament was immensely badly advised (and clearly lobbied!) to come up with this huge change to free navigation - but it did.
• So whilst you still have that common-law right to free navigation in the tidal harbour, the harbour has the right to charge you 'harbour dues' anyway.
• This only applies to certain named 'Statutory Harbours', and it only gives them certain rights which you'll find in a 'Harbour Revision Order' specific to the harbour. Those include the right to make (but they have to publish; they can't make them up as they go along) specific 'general directions' (ie what any vessel can't do) and the right to issue specific stated 'special directions' (ie to make specific requests to one or more vessels as and when they choose, for it to move or whatever).
• Frequently, harbours overstep the mark of these. For example, Yarmouth has previously asked another forumite to move from the deep-water spot on a bend way upriver of the bridge. Anchoring there was not against the 'general directions', and this spot was outside the limits of where the harbour could make 'special directions', so the harbour master was acting outside his rights and the vessel would have been entitled just to say no thanks. (I'll bet the man in the dinghy approached whatever yacht it was thought he had the right!)
• None of this applies to Beaulieu, which is not a Statutory Harbour.

IMHO there are some loopholes, but to my knowledge they haven't been used yet. All IMHO, and no, not tested. And don't expect the man or woman you're dealing with to have the first idea about these - they will naturally assume they have been correctly briefed that you are obliged to pay what they request!

• 'Combined charges' not valid if you don't use all the services. Most harbours charge a 'combined charge' for being there, mooring, and using harbour services. The Act allows you to object to a combined charge if you haven't used all the services. And most harbours don't state individual charges. Yet if there isn't a schedule of charges on display in the office, or available on request, they are not chargeable. Which means the harbour has no right to charge them and you are under no obligation to pay. Unfortunately, if you have previously paid the combined charge, that may undermine your claim not to pay it the next time as it'd be used as evidence that you accepted it.
• 'Harbour dues' not valid unless you're going ashore. I personally believe that the Harbours Act doesn't entitle the harbour to charge its dues unless you're going ashore. No, this has not been tested. 'Harbour Dues' are not defined in the Act. So the term must have a common meaning. Dictionary definitions imply this is for commercial vessels only, based on tonnage of cargo. That meaning was based on 'using the harbour' which meant the dockside, not just being in the harbour's waters. Therefore Parliament cannot have meant it to apply to leisure use of a harbour. Of course, harbour authorities (wrongly) assert that their charges apply to all vessels entering, leaving or within the harbour - but it's not their assertion that matters, it's the rights that Parliament specifically gave them.
• No payment required until a VAT invoice is provided. You could ask for a VAT invoice before making payment. If the services were VAT-exempt or zero-rated for VAT, a harbour wouldn't have to issue one. But (for example) Chichester Harbour Authority's pricing sheet states 'incl 20% VAT'. So, I see, does Beaulieu River, here [ https://www.beaulieuriver.co.uk/visiting/ ]. Where someone is selling VAT-inclusive services, they do not have to provide a VAT invoice unless you ask for one. But if you ask for one, they must provide one - it's the law - and no, offering a VAT receipt after payment does not get them off the hook. If you request it, they are obliged to provide a VAT invoice before taking payment. It can be a 'simplified VAT invoice' given the low value of the services: unlike a regular VAT invoice, this does not need to state the date, the customer's name and address or the VAT-net prices, but it does need to say 'Invoice' and state their VAT registration number, the VAT rate and the total amount due. Until they give you one, you're not under an obligation to pay. So you could just ask for it, wait for the inevitable and confused excuses (they can't/ don't have any/ compu'er says no/ you can have a VAT receipt afterwards so what's the problem/ they'll have to see the manager/ you'll have to see the manager/ nobody's asked that before/ no, they don't have to because.../ everyone else is coughing up without a VAT invoice/ raise it when the manager comes in but you have to pay before you leave...) and politely remind them you are offering payment for their VAT-registered supply, but you can't until they comply with consumer law [ http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/2518/part/III/made ].

 

[LittleSister]

'Harbour Dues' are not defined in the Act. So the term must have a common meaning.

I would have thought that if you are harbouring from the open sea in the shelter of the harbour, you are using the harbour, whether or not, you land.

(There is nothing to stop you anchoring in the open sea for free!)

 

[[2068]]

(There is nothing to stop you anchoring in the open sea for free!)

Umm, the really quite large “No Anchoring” zones in the Solent?

 

[BelleSerene]

(There is nothing to stop you anchoring in the open sea for free!)

I’m afraid that is not true either, LG. Most harbours are defined in their Harbour Revision Orders to include a chunk of the sea outside, complete with a free map and red-line boundary for those who don’t like reading words.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

As far as I can make out from its website, the River Yealm Harbour Authority has the powers to make such a charge. The designated harbour extends to include Cellar Bay. Charges are made for overnight stays, and the charge is the same for anchoring, mooring, or visitor pontoons.

In the 80’s when I sailed the SW the lone and only HM in the Yealm was a retired director of a large British public company. He could be heard coming to collect the dues in a Saab powered launch and would politely take the monies and pass the time of day. He operated from a wooden shed in the grounds of the Yealm Hotel. When he retired the Harbour Authority built new offices, facilities(?) and employed more staff. Typical empire building! My wife and I no longer sail the SW. why? The weather is often rotten, car parking is even more a rip-off than anchoring, charged for anchoring in Salcombe, Yealm, Dart, Fowey(if you can find anywhere) and the Fal. Unless you can find a national supermarket food the price of Fortnum and Mason. Avoid!

 

[AngusMcDoon]

As far as I can make out from its website, the River Yealm Harbour Authority has the powers to make such a charge. The designated harbour extends to include Cellar Bay. Charges are made for overnight stays, and the charge is the same for anchoring, mooring, or visitor pontoons.

Rumour has it that the Highland Council harbours' manager requested that the Lochinver harbour master charge boats for anchoring inside the harbour limits, but apparently it's always been too windy to take the harbour launch out, or it needs maintenance, or the staff are busy with fishing boats, or only Linda the admin is on duty & hasn't been trained, or the anchoring boat left before anyone got to them, or there was no-one on board when they visited, or it was traveling cinema day & everyone was watching a film. No dues for anchoring successfully collected yet .

 

[EldadHadani]

Ok then, Croatia, where you have to pay a cruising tax just to be there, Spain, where water is often charged for (never in the UK), Portugal, where residents have to have a long list of mandatory kit, Spain again, where residents have to be trained & licensed, Greece who are trying to introduce a cruising tax but are too incompetent to do it, south France where an overnight berth can cost €100 or more for a 12m boat, the list of rip offs and charges goes on & on, but you think emigration is the answer to a couple of rivers in the UK charging £20 to anchor. I suggest that you do.

Greece did introduce cruising tax. Although some problems if you try to pay online, it is certainly payable in the customs offices or by agents. And high fines if you are caught sailing without tax receipt.
On the other hand, more than a few mooring places offer buoys or pontoons for cash without receipt.

 

[robertj]

As far as the UK is concerned haven't there been several legal battles with a noted barrister challenging the ownership of the seabed and the rights allocated or claimed by parties that claim to own it. The upshot being that there is rarely the right to free mooring or anchoring.

You’re correct A leading barrister did an article over three months on the right to anchor free. His first two articles were brilliant but the third got pulled by the editorial staff of sailing today. I wonder why.
Now mr Hackett that £20 for telling you that. Please contact me privately and once paid I’ll email you a receipt. Lol

Sir Francis Sinclair but I’m not certain

 

[robertj]

In the 80’s when I sailed the SW the lone and only HM in the Yealm was a retired director of a large British public company. He could be heard coming to collect the dues in a Saab powered launch and would politely take the monies and pass the time of day. He operated from a wooden shed in the grounds of the Yealm Hotel. When he retired the Harbour Authority built new offices, facilities(?) and employed more staff. Typical empire building! My wife and I no longer sail the SW. why? The weather is often rotten, car parking is even more a rip-off than anchoring, charged for anchoring in Salcombe, Yealm, Dart, Fowey(if you can find anywhere) and the Fal. Unless you can find a national supermarket food the price of Fortnum and Mason. Avoid!

I totally agree. The SW is the biggest rip off for sure. Anchoring or harbour dies with over jealous glee. The harbour authorities have certainly built empires (is the harbour masters salary/pension based on staff?) and the money pit that the dig into might come to and end.

 

[BelleSerene]

You’re correct A leading barrister... Sir Francis Sinclair but I’m not certain

The very man. Sadly since deceased.