Hanse Review

Snooks,

I dont think you can win this one. I believe YM do a reasonably fair test and any shortcomings are referred to albeit more hinting and implied than blatant criticism.

Obviously makers would not give you boats to test If you only comment was their relevance as blue water cruisers or ability to go out in a F9! Clarkson is not allowed to test a Honda after his criticism!

Like many boats the Hanse is build down to a price , their durability is reflected by how few there are on the charter markets (for the Bavaria knockers its surprising how many are on the charter market and survive!) but they do seem to sail well with their finer entry bow (hence less of a caravan and norrower accomodation) and they appeal to many who want a fair weather cruiser.

I wish people would be more realistic there are boats that will survive a F9 but the market for them is more limited. We ultimately get the boats we are prepared to buy.

I do wish though that one AWB manufacturer would try a increased ballast ratio and a AVS of say 130deg+ and see if there is a market for it.

Keep up the good work Snooks but I am afraid on this one you are preaching to the deaf!
 
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I believe YM do a reasonably fair test and any shortcomings are referred to albeit more hinting and implied than blatant criticism.



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Which was my point - be outspoken, call a spade a spade, don't be afraid to rock the boat if that is what is needed & don't sit on every fence!


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I wish people would be more realistic there are boats that will survive a F9 but the market for them is more limited. We ultimately get the boats we are prepared to buy.



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All valid points - and have been discussed here
 
you missed my point Clarkson did that with Honda and he is no longer allowed to test their cars.

For YM to blatantly criticise every boat is stupid and would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas however they do mention any boat's shorcomings which the intelligent can read for themselves.

In this case the Hanse is a fast, cheap, fair weather cruiser and it would be unfair of YM to just knock it as it is not a blue water boat, nor ideal for a F9, nor built to the quality of say a HR or Najad!

Now what you have made me do - effectively praise a Hanse when I would not dream of buying one!!
 
The Clarckson analogy only works up to a point.
There are a lot more car manufacturers than boat builders and the car buying market is a lot bigger.
Honda does quite well without featuring on Top Gear.
If Hanse (to stick with the current example) should refuse to be tested by YM it might very well feel the pinch sales-wise.
If no-one talks about your boat...
In the end there is no such thing as bad publicity.

That's why IPC could afford to be more outspoken in it's reviews.
They need eachother - IPC needs boatbuilders for the advertising revenue - equally boat builders need IPC for the coverage.

As is, YM reviews are remarkebly content free and so very balanced it hurts.
The average review is about 4 sides of A4 - with pictures and advertising taking care of well over half of these.
So, you end up with just over 1.5 sides of A4 - telling you not much.

There's a Dutch sailing mag (Zeilen) which finds it's way to me sometimes.
A breath of fresh air: reviews are 5-6 pages if in depth coverage. From galley lay-out to sailplan and every bit in between. Even after pictures you're still left with well over 4 sides of A4.
Instead if the very summary 3 points pro and con you get a 10 point breakdown covering the entire boat (ventilation, seakeeping, electric wiring, etc...) and if it sucks they say so.
They seem to have no problem in finding boats to review.

Which leads to to my final point - when it comes to new boat reviews only the big four seem to matter (Ben/Jen/Bav & Hanse) - with the occasional Swede thrown in. There's soo much more out there!

When it comes to used boats reviews it's got to be a Westerly, Moody, Contessa,... Yawn... Going round in ever decreasing circles to dissapear...
Whenever a Bavaria thread crops up people praise the older (pre 1990) ones - why not review one of those? Never sailed on one, but been on board - looked very sollid.
Two boats ago I owned half of a Dufour 28 - very nice. Took me all over the North Sea.
 
I understood that some of the French mags were quite informative and you now inform me ..quote "There's a Dutch sailing mag (Zeilen) which finds it's way to me sometimes."

With YM in competition with ST you would have thought they could copy the style/content /format of any foreign sailing mag if it improved sales.
 
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I do wish though that one AWB manufacturer would try a increased ballast ratio and a AVS of say 130deg+ and see if there is a market for it.


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They did. Still do probably. Called the Hunter Mystery. Rave reviews from anyone who has sailed her. Is there a market? Think they have sold in relatively small numbers.
 
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Which leads to to my final point - when it comes to new boat reviews only the big four seem to matter (Ben/Jen/Bav & Hanse) - with the occasional Swede thrown in. There's soo much more out there!

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You mean like the last 5 boats tests:
RM1050 - Tested - Hard chine wooden, twin keels
Najad 355 - Tested - Token swede - nice /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Allures 44 - Tested - Lifting keel, round chine alluminium boat
Legend 50 - Tested - a big legend
Hanse 430e- Stunning to look at, nice to sail

All the above are boats that are different from each other, and that's what we're trying to do, give you, the reader a variety of boats, and not always the same AWB.

We have done 6 more boat tests that are forthcoming so I won't spoil the wait, but only one is a swede, and none of the other 5 are a ben jen bav or hanse....So, I feel we're doing what we can, and your coment was unfair as we do test a variety of yachts.

Personally I'd love to see longer boat test feaures (with lots more pictures!!!) But we can't please everyone all the time, we try, but not everyone wants to read about new boats, so giving them more pages will just end up upsetting a different section of our readership who might want to read more about sailing skills, or cruising articles.

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Whenever a Bavaria thread crops up people praise the older (pre 1990) ones - why not review one of those? Never sailed on one, but been on board - looked very sollid.
Two boats ago I owned half of a Dufour 28 - very nice. Took me all over the North Sea.

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So now you want us to test Bavarias? See we really can't win!! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
We did a test on an older Bavaria, dec 2005 (a bav 320, made it on the cover) We haven't tested a Dufour 28, but we've tested a Dufour 29 (many years ago now 2000) and if you look at the list of second hand boats we have tested, you'll see there are gaps, but surprisingly few /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You can't aways get what you want, but if you try some time you might get what you need
 
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We have done 6 more boat tests that are forthcoming so I won't spoil the wait, but only one is a swede, and none of the other 5 are a ben jen bav or hanse....So, I feel we're doing what we can, and your coment was unfair as we do test a variety of yachts.


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My apologies - crystal ball in the shop for repairs
 
The problem with readers is that they only read the reviews in relation to their own circumstances ... there are huge numbers of ppl who don't want to do extensive coastal cruising or offshore sailing - but I don't think the Hanse was aimed at that...

From the outside she looked like quite a nice design (from what I could see of the pics, only glanced really), but I've never been a fan of the interior finish.

Perhaps an inclusion of the intended market would be a good pointer .... with a flat bottom and huge open transom I would've thought she is designed for the racing sailor ...
 
On the whole I find YM reviews are fair, but can only re-iterate that it is worth looking at some of the french magazines for reviews that are very helpful.

Where I find they excel is in the technical details that matter when you are seriously considering a purchase. Typically they will supply you with all the key dimensions of berths, cockpit size, saloon size etc. They also tend to photograph everything they want to make a point about eg. Pratique and Pas Pratique points in the Voilier magazine. They are also consistent in what they publish technical detail on, which makes it easier to compare boats.

I have some reviews from YM about 15 years ago, and they did seem to contain more technical stuff than nowadays.... for example storage levels throughout the boat, engine noise levels....do you know why these were dropped?
 
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My apologies - crystal ball in the shop for repairs

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You weren't to know what was coming up, but the last 5 boats we've tested was a pretty good indicator that we don't just stick to mainstream boats. No crystal ball needed for those /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Well, if the 5 most recent and the 6 upcoming reviews contain only one review of a 'mainstream' boat (the Hanse), it could be argued that Guapa has exactly the kind of publication he says he wants. I though remain a bit mystifed that the vastly more popular boats don't seems to get their fair share of reviews! A rock and a hard place....!

A simple flora search will reveal why Guapa has something of a paranoia about Bavs, even though he now seems to be thawing on older models ;-) As he well knows, ongoing, tiresome criticism of Bavs is usually met with rebukes from happy customers of existing, recent models, not 2nd hand views of people who may have seen those of an older, supposedly more sturdy vintage.
 
I am the gentleman who made the post in the first place. I live on my Manta catamaran in which I have travelled around 25000 ocean miles. We are now in Fiji. I don't have anything to do with any boat manufacturers.
My post has provoked some interesting responses. I'd like to add a few comments. Firstly there is no need for the employee of YM and the other guy to flame each other, please keep it civilised. I have, however, read YM for many years, and like most other magazines, there is a marked reluctance to be blunt. In this case you should have noted the AVS and commented on it, in my opinion.
As to the other contributor who spoke of catamarans having a typical AVS of 45 degrees or so, well, you don't know what you are talking about! Most are actually close to 80 degrees, and in the case of some, such as certain Prout models, exceed 100 degrees! At 45 degrees they are close to their maximum righting moment, which is enormous.
And to the other contributor who dismisses AVS as 'just one factor', it is a very important factor in ultimate safety. Of course, its only in very severe conditions that it will have any relevance, but ask those in the Fastnet disaster how important it was.
And as to the OVNI, despite Jimmy Cornell's, and others, confidence, I wouldn't sail one in a large ocean for the very fact of its low AVS. It would be too easy for a knockdown to turn into a capsize from which it would not right itself.
Normally any size of wave will not capsize an ocean-going yacht unless it is a breaking wave, according to the Wolfston unit, but that may not be the case with a boat with a low AVS, such as the Hanse and the Ovni, where even a violent broach might turn one over. Light catamarans with big rigs can also capsize due to wind alone, although that would not be possible with cruising cats.
If a cat turns over, it will remain inverted, but afloat and of some use as a platform. The Hanse tested, and all Ovnis, would almost certainly also stay inverted, but would then be of no use as a platform for survival. Note also that a monohull with a fixed keel will be more liable to roll to these extreme angles than a catamaran in the same conditions. This is particularly so with the Hanse because the righting moment as it heels is so small. It really will take a quite small breaking wave to knock it over.
 
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......I have some reviews from YM about 15 years ago, and they did seem to contain more technical stuff than nowadays.... for example storage levels throughout the boat, engine noise levels....do you know why these were dropped?

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That's an interesting comment. I've been thinking for some time that YM seems to be progressively dumbing-down - generally the reviews and articles seem to be getting more content-free, leave you wanting to know more, they use all this little info panels and pics at odd angles which I find really irritating.......seems to be designed to leave on the coffee-table and dip into occasionally.
And I have to say that ST is doing a much better job. And they do some serious gear-tests, use the stuff on board and they seem to do an honest review.
 
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At 45 degrees they are close to their maximum righting moment, which is enormous.

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curious - I would've thought the max righting moment would be when the windward hull just clears the water ...
 
agreed, mulithulls are at their most stable when both hulls are in the water, increasing the angle of heel makes them more unstable, and at around 45deg they are nearing their most unstable attitude.
 
...mmmm Not sure that is right. They are surely at their most stable when the windward hull is just "kissing" the water, so that the maximum downforce from the weight of that hull is contributing to the righting moment.
 
Its always good when a new contributor comes ontothese forums - especially someone like you with many miles under their belt. A different perspective often results in informative discussions - so you are very Welcome.

I have some sympathy for YM employees as its obvious that many are very motivated to provide the best magazine, they also provide this useful website and to end up getting heavily criticised on their own website must be galling at times.

Scuttlebutt contributors are not IMHO people without opinions and some are a bit quirky while some frankly are wind up merchants but its always interesting especially if you are prepared to cut them some slack!!
 
Surely it must be most stable with windward hull in water. You then have maximum righting moment (wt of one hull x horz distance) + water tension holding hull in water (probable only very small)
 
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