Hanse Review

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arni

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I am staggered that the criticisms of the Hanse reviewed recently in respect of offshore use only talked of relatively trivial internal matters, but did not mention its AVS of 109 degrees! I don't know how this vessel got an A rating from the EU, but its time the yachting press fronted up, ignored its advertisers, and spoke the truth. For goodness sake, my catamaran can get to nearly this angle without capsizing. Also, did everyone note the shape of the stability curve? Not only was the AVS a very low number, but the righting moment, even at maximum, was pitiful, and the part of the graph underneath the line was almost the same shape as that above, meaning it would be almost as stable upside down as it is the right way up! If anybody fixes its internal shortcomings and takes one offshore, they are a tragedy waiting to happen.
 
Hi ya

The first line of the verdict was:

"She sails like a dream but she's not aimed at serious passage makers"

If people want to buy a boat and dissapear into the sunset, they can, people have done it in boats far less seaworthy than a Hanse 430e. Nowhere in the article did YM say she'd be a good blue water cruiser, very few boats build today are what I personally consider to be a bluewater cruiser, but that's my opinion, of all the boats I sail and would be "happy" to be caught out in a storm in.

The AVS is something I can't check up on at the moment...I'm at home, it's the weekend, I'm sure you understand /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for the impartiality of YM, as I said it's my weekend and I'm not going to get into another running battle with how readers believe that the editorial are some how bought by advertised /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif..We're not, it's as simple as that, no ifs, buts or maybes... No matter how much everyone might want to believe it.

I realise it's your first post, and also I realise the above might seem harsh, but I've spent too many hours defending the magazine I work for and believe in.

G
 
Hi
I had the same thoughts when I read the article, but as a friend of mine bought one of their 37s last year I've chosen to keep quiet. On the other hand, it's a big boat (to me) which will probably look after itself in the sort of waters it will mostly be used in. I agree with you that I would have expected some comment in the article and that this criticism does not reflect upon the propriety of the writers so much as an apparent failure in what some us might see as their duty to their less experienced readers.
 
Well, maybe the comments " ... has huge amounts of potential as a serious sailing boat ... " and "... this could be the perfect boat." could be taken out of context to imply it's something it isn't. But then, on the other hand, the stability curve is published and anyone spending that amount of money might be expected to have some idea of what it means, so, in view of the comment " ... not aimed at serious passage makers." perhaps YM has done no more than fall in love with a lady's good looks. As most of us have probably done at some time.
She does look gorgeous but the shape of the transom could be a warning ...
I too am baffled about what the RCD is actually trying to achieve, and what the RCD category actually means. If even an enthusiastic review has to consider that she's not aimed at serious passage making, surely RCD category A ("Ocean") is just plain wrong? And haven't we enough information now about the safety of boats which are nearly as stable upside-down as upright? I admit to not having owned one of these boats, lacking £123,706, but is it likely that an over-enthusiasm on amount of sail ("she's going really well now, lots of knots!") plus a sudden gust and a breaking wave, could lead to disaster?
Does the RCD need an refit?
 
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but did not mention its AVS of 109 degrees! I don't know how this vessel got an A rating from the EU, but its time the yachting press fronted up, ignored its advertisers, and spoke the truth. For goodness sak

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With respect but you are speaking a load of tosh. There are many factors in making a boat seaworthy and AVS is perhaps one of them - but only one of them. Many boats with very low AVSs make fine blue water cruisers the Ovni being a good example.
 
I have often had cause to think that people who trust statistics are one brick short of aload. They can help point you towards a judgement but do not tell the whole story, experience couts for a great deal.

That said the AVS and max GZ are pretty poor but then much as YM MAY have shortcomings they did state unequivocally that; " she's not aimed at serious passage makers" What more do you want them to do? I thought the review fair and balanced, as usual.
 
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I thought the review fair and balanced, as usual.

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Maybe that's part of the problem - on one side: the boat's a dog - OTOH let's not upset the advertisers.
As to the boat itself: Solent - F5 - self-tacking jib - double reefed main - nuff said.

When have you last known JJ holding a controversial, outspoken view?
Calling a spade a spade?

Snooks: don't bother replying - mind long since made up.
 
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I thought the review fair and balanced, as usual.

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Maybe that's part of the problem - on one side: the boat's a dog - OTOH let's not upset the advertisers.
As to the boat itself: Solent - F5 - self-tacking jib - double reefed main - nuff said.

When have you last known JJ holding a controversial, outspoken view?
Calling a spade a spade?

Snooks: don't bother replying - mind long since made up.

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Shame really, as I'm back from the pub and have time to waste!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If your mind is made up that's fine, everyone has their own opinions, no matter how misplaced they are... Fact is editorial and advertising are separate whether you choose to believe it or not...Advertising would not be doing their job if they didn't get the boat manufactures who are tested in the magazine to advertise, it makes sense for them...But seeing you're already convinced, this is falling on deaf ground. Of course you're right, and I, who work for the magazine am wrong, you're obviously better connected to the publishers that I....I've only been with YM for 8 years, what do I know eh? But hey, you said don't reply and I did, guess you got one over on me /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fact is the Hanse was far from a dog, she was a lovely boat to sail, and yes I've sailed a few..She was a peach (even with her £5000 carbon wheels) she would have been even better if she didn't have a self-tacker...in fact if I had kept my gob shut I might have enjoyed sailing her more...The gooseneck sheared (mentioned in the article) so I didn't have as much fun and input into the test as I usually do.

btw article was written by Chris Beeson, not JJ

But seeing your omniscient, I don't know why I replied, guess I'm just stubborn /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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I don't know why I replied, guess I'm just stubborn

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Or just a sucker for punishment?

The fact the you did feel the need to reply is some indication that I may just not just be the lone raving idiot ranting in the desert...


Two years ago PBO ran an on-line blog based on my submissions - I say "based on" because the content was quite heavily edited. Comments which cast certain bits of equipment or certain boats in a "less than favourable" light where cut without exception.

Also, that summer I happened to chat to JJ - a certain autopilot came up. JJ mentioned he had had one of those too and it had never worked.
Going through a back copy of YM I find that this bit of equipment had warranted a very good write up.
So, YM knew it was crap, yet did not say so.

When I raised this point one here JJ admitted that he had indeed made the remark, but qualified it as "A throwaway remark which I have since regretted".
I wonder why?

PS: I've looked up "editorial independence" for you - just in case you had forgotten it's meaning

Editorial independence is the freedom of editors to make decisions without interference from the owners of a publication. Editorial independence is tested, for instance, if a newspaper runs articles that may be unpopular with its advertising customers.

In the case of YM we get reviews so heavily balanced you need a microscope to read between the lines.
I must say that the Hanse review is quite possibly the most outspoken one I've ever read; but, for crying out load - if it's a dog with fleas - just say so!
 
I have not read it recently but if I remember correctly, regarding AVS, RYA state in their stability booklet that the area under the line of the curve should fit int the area above by a factor of 5! I cant remember many boats that will, perhaps the Southerlys do.
When selecting a yacht, safety must be fairly high on most peoples list. We can only read what the manufacturers provide to make at least a slightly informed decision. All too often you see on the YM tests that STIX is not provided, why is that? they must have the info have they chosen not to give it.
Not being a navel architect I can only go on what I read in the yachting press, and research that can be found, however I appreciate that AVS and STIX is only a small part of a complicated subject. IMHO I would rather see a highr BR than 109% even for channel hops.
 
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The fact the you did feel the need to reply is some indication that I may just not just be the lone raving idiot ranting in the desert...

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There may be a few of you, but it still doesn't make you right! There are lots of people who believe in UFOs and little green men, but it doesn't mean they are right as well /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

This is a well trodden path that both you and I have been down before, and I'm not going to repost everything I wrote last time.

I work in the YM office, I know there is no collusion between editorial and advertising. Whether you choose to believe to believe that is up to you.

Fact is, no boats we test are a pile of pants...The aren't all Najads, admittedly, but price alone will tell you that.

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Editorial independence is the freedom of editors to make decisions without interference from the owners of a publication. Editorial independence is tested, for instance, if a newspaper runs articles that may be unpopular with its advertising customers.

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We've had advertisers withdraw ads because of what's been written in the past, but we're not going to shout from the rooftops every time this happens.

So, using your definition, YM has editorial independence. Case closed, job done, I'll leave you to get back to your raving and ranting in the desert with your friends /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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I work in the YM office, I know there is no collusion between editorial and advertising. Whether you choose to believe to believe that is up to you.

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I don't - which is why I said "snooks - don't bother replying"

Interesting replies though - first dismissal, then ridicule...
 
Re: Hanse Review - Aluminium Rudder stock

I didn't really read much of this review, but noticed that Hanse still use Aluminium rudder stocks. I thought that MAIB had criticised the use of this matterial, being subject to hidden electrolytic corrosion.

Perhaps a cooment on this rather important item of kit to a boats saftey should have been made. - perhaps I am talking twaddle - any engineers care to comment on this.....
 
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Not being a navel architect I can only go on what I read in the yachting press, and research that can be found, however I appreciate that AVS and STIX is only a small part of a complicated subject. IMHO I would rather see a highr BR than 109% even for channel hops.

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As I see it STIX and AVS are only one small aspect of safety at sea.

Does an Ovni have a low AVS? Relatively. Yet they are the blue water cruiser of choice in many countries. Would a Thames barge have a low AVS? Definitely. Yet few would call them unseaworthy. Are the AVSs low in some of the steel built blue water cruiser designs? I think so.

When going on one of these 'serious passages' how much extra weight is added to the boat in the form of stores, anchors, full water tanks? Many hundreds of KG. What would the AVS be of a fully loaded Contessa 32? Certainly not as good as you would imagine.

What does the AVS matter if washboards and hatches are not locked in place and downflooding angles are then only 90 degrees.

I am not saying it is not important but there are a lot more safety issues to worry about than AVS, the quality of the skipper and crew being at the top. I would rather go to sea with some people in a Pico dinghy than some others in a large cruiser.
 
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[ Fact is editorial and advertising are separate whether you choose to believe it or not...

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Now come on! You know what happened with Walker Wingsail, and I'm reckon you know the effect that this court case had on IPC's willingness to bluntly say that a boat is a "dog". OK it would be surprising if any boat designed in recent years were to deserve that description, but if it did so then I for one do not bel;ieve you would be allowed to say so in the mag. It wouldnt make any sort of business sense to allow you to do so.

This is not to say that IPC bow down to advertisers, but surely this case has had a similar effect. Tell me I'm wrong!
 
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Not being a navel architect .......................
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What a lovely profession. The careers adviser never told me about this when I left Uni! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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For goodness sake, my catamaran can get to nearly this angle without capsizing.

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Arni - your cat cant get to half that angle! For a cat the AVS is typically somwhere between 40 and 45 deg. Whci in a way illustrates the pointlessness of just quoting AVS. If your boat can slide sideways like most cats or an Ovni, then AVS is less critical. So the AVS of a cat cant be compared with that of a deep keeled mono.
 
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