Aja
Well-known member
That may well be the class handicap, but I'm fairly sure that there hasn't been a Riviera on the start line for a CYCA race sailing off 16.5 - show one boat that has - there are no named boats on the list.
Handicap Moody Eclipse v Westerly Riviera v Hunter Horizon 32
- Thread starter Jigger
- Start date
PeteCooper
Well-known member
Having posted the CYCA handicap for the Riviera I am feeling guilty. There is no way the Riviera is that much quicker than the others. It may well be that a Riviera turned up years ago and had new sails, a clean bottom and was stripped out and won a race, and then never raced again.
My gut feeling for the rest is that the Hunter would be slightly the quicker of the options given.
My gut feeling for the rest is that the Hunter would be slightly the quicker of the options given.
Jigger
New member
Hi All,
And thanks for your input. I have been trawling far and wide to back up the CYCA data and that includes many other national databases across Europe. I suppose its hardly surprising but UK built boats pretty much disappear from those lists the further you get away from the UK so that part was a waste of time. But within the UK I did find the odd entry in a local race/club record and have been putting them all together and that did fall broadly in line with the CYCA.
I did have a biased view towards Hunter Bilge keel boats as I raced against quite a few and they always performed better than the old 50 point PY bilge keel allowance they claimed. Basically there was a massive difference between the performance of early bilge keelers that had upright GRP moulded stubs filled with scrap and those with splayed asymmetric cast iron bolt on keels. But the interior of the Horizon 32 seamed cramped.
All the classes I have considered apart from the Riviera and Horizon 32 are dedicated motor sailor designs with more body in the hulls forward which might be good for space, motoring and reaching.
The Riviera and Horizon however are based on the Oceanquest and Channel 323 so are sailing boat hull designs.
Both Hunters and Westerly (Ed Dobois designed) boats of this period had a reputation for good performance in their bilge keel options.
But in every handicap list I can find a trace of either the Oceanquest (or its sisters) and Channel 323/32/31 or the Riviera and the Horizon 32 the Westerlys outperform the Hunters and proportionately about the same for either of those comparisons.
I even applied an assumption that all the Hunter Channel/Horizon 32 handicaps were for bilge keel boats and all the Westerly Oceanquest/Seahawk/Riviera handicaps were for Fin keel boats and applied the old 50 point bilge keel allowance to the PY equivalent handicaps. The Westerlys still came out faster.
But I am still undecided about the whole thing.. might manage to get a trial sail and judge for myself.. might just end up with a centre cockpit and a good spray hood.
If I do go for one of these I will probably still be doing the odd local race and I will report back in the future and update this thread.
Roll on Next Summer
And thanks for your input. I have been trawling far and wide to back up the CYCA data and that includes many other national databases across Europe. I suppose its hardly surprising but UK built boats pretty much disappear from those lists the further you get away from the UK so that part was a waste of time. But within the UK I did find the odd entry in a local race/club record and have been putting them all together and that did fall broadly in line with the CYCA.
I did have a biased view towards Hunter Bilge keel boats as I raced against quite a few and they always performed better than the old 50 point PY bilge keel allowance they claimed. Basically there was a massive difference between the performance of early bilge keelers that had upright GRP moulded stubs filled with scrap and those with splayed asymmetric cast iron bolt on keels. But the interior of the Horizon 32 seamed cramped.
All the classes I have considered apart from the Riviera and Horizon 32 are dedicated motor sailor designs with more body in the hulls forward which might be good for space, motoring and reaching.
The Riviera and Horizon however are based on the Oceanquest and Channel 323 so are sailing boat hull designs.
Both Hunters and Westerly (Ed Dobois designed) boats of this period had a reputation for good performance in their bilge keel options.
But in every handicap list I can find a trace of either the Oceanquest (or its sisters) and Channel 323/32/31 or the Riviera and the Horizon 32 the Westerlys outperform the Hunters and proportionately about the same for either of those comparisons.
I even applied an assumption that all the Hunter Channel/Horizon 32 handicaps were for bilge keel boats and all the Westerly Oceanquest/Seahawk/Riviera handicaps were for Fin keel boats and applied the old 50 point bilge keel allowance to the PY equivalent handicaps. The Westerlys still came out faster.
But I am still undecided about the whole thing.. might manage to get a trial sail and judge for myself.. might just end up with a centre cockpit and a good spray hood.
If I do go for one of these I will probably still be doing the odd local race and I will report back in the future and update this thread.
Roll on Next Summer
A1Sailor
...
Why not ask the CYCA?
Pagetslady
Active member
How about a Westerly Corsair, with a fully inclosed spray hood, sail well loads of comfort below, good value for money at least I think so, I am a little bias having sailed mine for over 25 years.
Mike.
Mike.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Hi Jigger. I would be very surprised if any of the Horizon 32 you have found were fin keel. I dont believe that Hunter ever made any. And I am not sure that the hull of the Horizon was that of the 323 which it pre dated. I thought that is was the Hunter 31 hull which has a lwl of 26.8 compared with 28 for the Moody and 27 for the Westerly. Thus the hull speed of the Hunter would be less and the old PY would be higher. By the way the PY fin to bilge adjustment was 5% not 50.
That said I dont really understand your quest. If you race the boat then it will be under NHC o even the bsolete PH - it wont be under IRC with that sort of boat. Both PY and NHC are performance based handicaps that adjust to the performance you put up. You dont, or shouldnt, race on the base number for more than one race in a series.
AQs for cruising speed, the differences are trivial . All three are really slow by comparison with a modern performance boat not to mention a multihull. Thinking about race handicaps for cruising in one of these three is like worrying about the 0 to 60 time of the three door family hatch.
That said I dont really understand your quest. If you race the boat then it will be under NHC o even the bsolete PH - it wont be under IRC with that sort of boat. Both PY and NHC are performance based handicaps that adjust to the performance you put up. You dont, or shouldnt, race on the base number for more than one race in a series.
AQs for cruising speed, the differences are trivial . All three are really slow by comparison with a modern performance boat not to mention a multihull. Thinking about race handicaps for cruising in one of these three is like worrying about the 0 to 60 time of the three door family hatch.
doug748
Well-known member
This has been playing at the back of my mind, thanks for putting it into words. I think jigger should buy the boat that suits family use and take the racing as it comes, any of these boats will lick the others, in good hands.
As for any of them beating some older cruiser racers over the line, as already mentioned, it is very unlikely.