Handicap Moody Eclipse v Westerly Riviera v Hunter Horizon 32

[Jigger]

I posted a thread in 'Reader to Reader' to try and establish which sailed the best, but not getting far so changing tack to see if anyone has any handicap data on them.
I know these aren't racing boats but people race all manner of boats in local club races and I wondered if anyone has any club handicap data for any of them or any personal experience of their sailing abilities.
Have been cruising and racing yachts dinghies and cats all my life (apparently learnt to steer before riding a bike) but with advancing years we are looking for a motor sailer that still sails in lighter and more moderate winds. We want to sail, everywhere if possible, but when it gets tough the appeal of a wheelhouse is growing with age. Our budget could go to a Hunter Horizon 32, Moody Eclipse or Westerly Riviera each of which offer the options we want for some extended exploring, namely internal steering option with good visibility, good accommodation for two and (I will put on ear defenders now ready for the response) bilge keels.

 

[A1Sailor]

Do you mean a Moody Eclipse 33? Or a 38 or a 43?
If you go to http://www.cyca-online.org.uk/cgi-bin/CSV_search.pl?database=webboats you can search:
Moody Eclipse 33: 20.5 min/hr
Hunter Horizon 32: 21 min/hr
Westerley Riviera: not listed.
So the Eclipse and Horizon are pretty similar, with the base handicap for the Eclipse slightly quicker.

 

[Jigger]

Many Thanks A1Sailer,
This is just the sort of info I have been looking for and the Clyde Database was on my list as another place to search but it has changed from the last time I looked at it so I decided to stick to being methodical starting from the bottom of the country and work up looking for yacht club handicap databases. Will go back and have a good look at the Clyde Database again now.
And yes I mean the Eclipse 33, I don't think they had a bilge keel option for the 38 or 43 and they would be way out of our budget.

 

[A1Sailor]

I had a fin keel Moody 336 for a few years and she was a very sea-kindly, comfortable cruising boat. The Eclipse 33 has, I think, the same hull albeit with a house built on it!
Hope you enjoy whatever you decide to buy.

 

[PeteCooper]

CYCA lists the Riviera as 16.25 min/hr - so a bit quicker than the other 2.

 

[A1Sailor]

CYCA lists the Riviera as 16.25 min/hr - so a bit quicker than the other 2.

Well done.:encouragement:
I could only find one Westerly Riviera in the database, without a handicap. The Bianca Riviera is 18.5 but that's obviously a different boat.
There's quite a big difference in performance between 20.5/21 and 16.25

 

[Jigger]

Hi everyone and thanks for all your help.
I was thrown off a bit at first by the Clyde handicap stuff, but that has all come together with other stuff I have researched on other club/area handicap systems and I have actually found the Westerly Riviera on the Clyde Handicap now with a 16.25min/hr allowance which kind of nails it (for some reason that didn't show on earlier searches). Its not surprising really as it matches the other raised centre cockpit Westerlys built on the same hull which probably have a similar CofG, profile windage and SailArea.
So (corrected to Standard) Eclipse 33 - 20.5min/hr, Horizon 32 - 21min/hr, Westerly Vulcan - 20.5min/hr, Espace 1000 - 20.5min/hr, Southerly 115 - 20.5min/hr.
All these motor sailors have a similar handicap which compares with stuff like Trapper 300, Nicholson 32, Moody 29, Warrior 35. That is quite reasonable company for motor sailors.
But the Westerly Riviera with a handicap of 16.25min/hr compares with Moody 346, Westerly Fulmar, Westerly Seahawk/Oceanquest, UFO 34, Hustler 32, Impala.. These are either cruisers that sail very well or respectable older racers and thats quite impressive for a motor sailor with internal wheelhouse and a Deck Saloon.
Interestingly the Espace 1100 also has a similar handicap but I think only comes as a fin keel option.
I could not find all these boats listed together anywhere else but where I could find any I compared with known classes on the lists and this was building a picture with same conclusions as the Clyde List has provided.
Being realistic this is certainly not a boat that is going to decimate a race fleet in light airs, but in a 3-4 it looks like it will provide a respectable performance and be a pleasure to sail.
So based on handicap info Westerly Riviera faster under sail (pity I couldn't afford a Hanse 371DS though).

 

[Aja]

Haven't checked the CYCA database but is the Westerly Riviera a bilge keeler? You are suggesting that a Riviera has the same handicap as a Storm?
Donald

 

[A1Sailor]

The base CYCA handicap for the Westerley Riviera is indeed 16.25
Go here: http://www.cyca-online.org.uk/handicaps.asp , click on "Look up classes" then enter Riviera.
If you do the same for Storm the base handicap is indeed 16.25
So yes - they have they same CYCA handicap.
Haven't a clue if either is for twin or single keel.

 

[awol]

I hope you realise that all boats sailing under CYCA , apart from mine that is, are complete handicap bandits!

 

[Jigger]

Hasn't that always been the case with every handicap system ever invented?

I have assumed on Clyde and all other Handicap data I found base or Standard configurations and if specified otherwise altered to folding prop/ fin keel for comparison.
I also looked far and wide, even checked any foreign handicap lists I could find on the web and the Clyde data for the boats I am looking at was pretty typical.
The Seahawk and Oceanquest are centre cockpit hull sisters to the Riviera. They are criticised for having a poor CofG due to the excessively raised Centre cockpit done to achieve walking headroom in the corridor to the aft cabin. I would assume that the Riviera would have a similar CofG, sail area and a similar windage profile and assuming base/standard config they have the same handicap which is logical. I found data for bilge keel Seahawk/Oceanquest's handicaps which I assume would be typical for a bilge keel Riviera and that was still acceptable and actually still better than the base handicap for the other boats I am looking at fin or otherwise.

 

[Jigger]

PS: I recall the Westerly Storm was one of the boats Westerly admitted sailed better as a family cruiser (as against being raced with a rugby team in the rails) with bilge keels that it did with a fin because of the design of the asymmetric keels and extra ballast used in the bilge keel version which made it stiffer.
But the Riviera (even if this is the fin version) also compares to Hustlers, UFO's and Impala's which were only ever fin keel racers. Even the potential bilge keel performance based on bilge keel Seahawk puts it around a Contessa 32.
The potential to match a Contessa 32 when the weather turns cold and damp from the comfort of the wheelhouse/Deck saloon is very appealing now my joints are starting to ache and the capabilities of my body fall short of my enthusiasm.

 

[A1Sailor]

I raced my Sadler 25 at a wet & windy West Highland Week many years ago. There was a Moody Eclipse 33 in the same class...
I can still remember the smirk on the skipper's face, sitting in his centrally heated "saloon" while we froze our nuts off in the pissing rain.

 

[jwilson]

Hi everyone and thanks for all your help.
I was thrown off a bit at first by the Clyde handicap stuff, but that has all come together with other stuff I have researched on other club/area handicap systems and I have actually found the Westerly Riviera on the Clyde Handicap now with a 16.25min/hr allowance which kind of nails it (for some reason that didn't show on earlier searches). Its not surprising really as it matches the other raised centre cockpit Westerlys built on the same hull which probably have a similar CofG, profile windage and SailArea.
So (corrected to Standard) Eclipse 33 - 20.5min/hr, Horizon 32 - 21min/hr, Westerly Vulcan - 20.5min/hr, Espace 1000 - 20.5min/hr, Southerly 115 - 20.5min/hr.
All these motor sailors have a similar handicap which compares with stuff like Trapper 300, Nicholson 32, Moody 29, Warrior 35. That is quite reasonable company for motor sailors.
But the Westerly Riviera with a handicap of 16.25min/hr compares with Moody 346, Westerly Fulmar, Westerly Seahawk/Oceanquest, UFO 34, Hustler 32, Impala.. These are either cruisers that sail very well or respectable older racers and thats quite impressive for a motor sailor with internal wheelhouse and a Deck Saloon.
Interestingly the Espace 1100 also has a similar handicap but I think only comes as a fin keel option.
I could not find all these boats listed together anywhere else but where I could find any I compared with known classes on the lists and this was building a picture with same conclusions as the Clyde List has provided.
Being realistic this is certainly not a boat that is going to decimate a race fleet in light airs, but in a 3-4 it looks like it will provide a respectable performance and be a pleasure to sail.
So based on handicap info Westerly Riviera faster under sail (pity I couldn't afford a Hanse 371DS though).

I'd be hard pushed to sail a UFO34 or a Hustler 32 slow enough to lose to a Westerly Riviera.... I'd have to heave to for a while on windward legs to let the Riviera catch up.

The problem with handicaps for rarely-raced boats is that there are not enough of them regularly racing, often the handicap is based on just one boat, possibly with dirty bottom, three bladed fixed prop and knackered sails, sailed by someone with poor sail trim. Or it could be based on one with clean bottom, folding prop, and excellent sails sailed by an ex-dinghy champion. For classes where several boat regularly race you'll probably have reasonable data, for others it can be very wrong.

On your original list of B/K versions of Horizon 32, Moody Eclipse 33 or Westerly Riviera I'd expect the Horizon to be a bit faster.

 

[Jigger]

Yes, So did I but was surprised by the result. I am not trying to persuade myself about this, I just want to establish which of these 'motor sailors' sail the best.
The Horizon 32 is a hull sister to the Channel 32 but with a little less sail, and the Riviera is a hull sister to the OceanQuest but with a little more sail.
The Channel 32 in base fin keel config is still markedly slower on handicap than the Westerly OceanQuest in base config on every handicap list I could find to make that comparison so assuming both Horizon 32 and Riviera are similar types of variation from their hull sisters the Riviera should be faster.
What is more wherever a Horizon or Riviera has appeared in a handicap list they relate quite well to their hull sisters.
As for matching some classic racers; Its hard to imagine the type of person I have stereotyped in my mind pushing any of these 'motor sailers' on their ear to their handicap potential, they might spill their G&T in the deck saloon and if we do buy one of these I will be happy so long as we have chosen the best bilge keel sailing option. But another set of sails is like a stick to a dog for me so whatever else is out there sailing the wife will have to wait to fill her glass whilst I try.

 

[lw395]

The Oceanquest is 35ft. Length matters.
I would not put much faith in yardsticks for these things.
How many people ever race them half seriously 'around the cans'?
You may find that some yardsticks are biased towards e.g. the ARC, where the upwind disadvantage of bilge keels does not come into it.
You may find the yardstick is a complete guess, based on it being 10% longer than the 32. That's what we have to do when people enter odd boats for races. Normally the race team gets away with it.

 

[A1Sailor]

I think waterline length is more relevant than length overall when awarding handicaps.
The Riviera was a waterline length of "27.5ft". See https://ddzmarine.co.uk/boat-details?id=6650335
Eclipse 33 is 28ft... https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/yacht-reviews/moody-eclipse-33-review-33972
Hunter Horizon 32 is 27ft 3in... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1988/Hunter-Horizon-32-3216767/#.W63_1PZReUk
So all pretty similar.

 

[lw395]

I think waterline length is more relevant than length overall when awarding handicaps.
The Riviera was a waterline length of "27.5ft". See https://ddzmarine.co.uk/boat-details?id=6650335
Eclipse 33 is 28ft... https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/yacht-reviews/moody-eclipse-33-review-33972
Hunter Horizon 32 is 27ft 3in... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1988/Hunter-Horizon-32-3216767/#.W63_1PZReUk
So all pretty similar.

I'm surprised the Riviera has 7' of overhangs TBH.
Don't forget it's the sailing wl that matters, not static.

 

[A1Sailor]

Don't forget it's LWP that goes on the handicap application form.

LWP (was LWL) Length on waterplane in the condition of Empty Weight
http://www.cyca-online.org.uk/cm/dynamic/Large/27022018120733.pdf

I haven't a clue what they take into account, though!

 

[Birdseye]

There's quite a big difference in performance between 20.5/21 and 16.25

An unbelievable one. Something wrong with those numbers

I cannot imagine that you will find examples of all three racing in one fleet which is the only way you are going to get a realistic comparison and even then as has been pointed out there are issues of sail and hull condition, props, keels ( bilge or fin) not to mention crew skill. They simply arent raced.

My guess would be that they would be fairly similar with the Hunter being lighter and more flighty. It also has poorer internal design.