Halyard deflectors

[zoidberg]

A recent encounter with a pair of sailmakers last week left me a little discombobulated.

They each insisted - quite vehemently - that my thoughts on ordering a pair of new furling headsails couldn't be discussed further until I had a rigger fit 'halyard deflectors'.
I happened to have a pair of steel (?) deflectors in my boatshed and asked why those might not be suitable. Didn't get much further, so went off and sulked.

I've now noted that the units I have cost around £32 ( Marine Superstore ) online. Harken plastic wheel 'ESP' types are priced from £45 to £75, depending.

Is there a better idea...?


(Edit : I've tried to access Vyv Cox's site ' Cox Engineering – A technical information resource for yacht ... http://coxeng.co.uk'
and been unsuccessful. I know there's info in there, but my computenmaschin won't let me access it, probably due to an expired security certificate.)

 

[NormanS]

I had one that broke and gave me all sorts of grief with a "wrap".
I enquired about a replacement from our local sail maker, who rummaged in a box of various sizes, and gave me a suitable one, and wouldn't take any payment. ?
Apparently every new set of furling gear comes with one, and of course, many masts have them already fitted.

 

[yoda]

A recent encounter with a pair of sailmakers last week left me a little discombobulated.

They each insisted - quite vehemently - that my thoughts on ordering a pair of new furling headsails couldn't be discussed further until I had a rigger fit 'halyard deflectors'.
I happened to have a pair of steel (?) deflectors in my boatshed and asked why those might not be suitable. Didn't get much further, so went off and sulked.

I've now noted that the units I have cost around £32 ( Marine Superstore ) online. Harken plastic wheel 'ESP' types are priced from £45 to £75, depending.

Is there a better idea...?


(Edit : I've tried to access Vyv Cox's site ' Cox Engineering – A technical information resource for yacht ... http://coxeng.co.uk'
and been unsuccessful. I know there's info in there, but my computenmaschin won't let me access it, probably due to an expired security certificate.)

Is this: Halyard Lead Deflector
what you mean? Ultimately the maximum hoist height is limited by where this goes and is key to stopping the halyard getting wrapped around the foil when furling the headsail.

Yoda

 

[AMOREST]

From Cox Engineering web site.

 

[zoidberg]

Is this: Halyard Lead Deflector what you mean?

'Zackly! I have two of 'em. That ought to be enuff....

Now I s'pose I need to get the gurus at Allspars and a 'suitably-experienced sailmaker' to agree just WHERE on my mast those doofers need to be affixed. Now, if I can get a consensus from them on that, and manage to get them to stick to it, I reckon I'll be a shoe-in for a new career with the UN solving disputes between warring nations.....

And...thanks to Amorest. That's as I understood it.

 

[Neeves]

View attachment 146949


From Cox Engineering web site.

The other option is to have the top of the forestay enjoying greater separation (height) from the halyard sheave. The deflector simply increases the angle between forestay and halyard.

Simple stuff.

It seems that Harken might also have identified that it is a profitable business (and have sailmakers on side).

Jonathan

 

[bikedaft]

i've got nothing, and as long as i remember to slacken the halyard by 2" it's fine.

 

[dunedin]

……..
It seems that Harken might also have identified that it is a profitable business (and have sailmakers on side).

Why in heavens name do you think that Harken are trying to profit from this?

The issue of halyard angle relative to forestay angle applies to every type of furling gear I have come across, not just Harken. And it is a matter for boat designers and mast makers as to whether they reposition the jib halyard sheave lower (which is an issue if racing and changing sails without a furler) or fit a halyard deflector from new.
And in boat parts terms, a halyard deflector fitted at time of built is in the very low cost category.

 

[doug748]

A recent encounter with a pair of sailmakers last week left me a little discombobulated.

They each insisted - quite vehemently - that my thoughts on ordering a pair of new furling headsails couldn't be discussed further until I had a rigger fit 'halyard deflectors'.
I happened to have a pair of steel (?) deflectors in my boatshed and asked why those might not be suitable. Didn't get much further, so went off and sulked.

I've now noted that the units I have cost around £32 ( Marine Superstore ) online. Harken plastic wheel 'ESP' types are priced from £45 to £75, depending.

Is there a better idea...?


(Edit : I've tried to access Vyv Cox's site ' Cox Engineering – A technical information resource for yacht ... http://coxeng.co.uk'
and been unsuccessful. I know there's info in there, but my computenmaschin won't let me access it, probably due to an expired security certificate.)

First thought that springs to mind is - do you have problems with your present set up? So do, some don't.
I don't, but I have had several problems with spinnaker hoists, unless I fully furl the genoa first.

 

[zoidberg]

First thought that springs to mind is - do you have problems with your present set up? So do, some don't.
I don't, but I have had several problems with spinnaker hoists, unless I fully furl the genoa first.

I'm adding an inner stay at ~95% to a 40 y.o. BMU rig, with all sails ahead of the mast to be on furlers. It's unlikely the original designer had such an arrangement in mind....

I hope to fly an asy-spinnaker on occasion, but that will be set from a retractable jib-boom, Selden style, with enough clearance ahead of the genoa/forestay.

And...... Harken are perfectly entitled to profit from selling their good ESP kit. It's simply that this cheapskate bulks at paying the prices advertised for a circular plastic moulding, and am wondering what 'cheap as chips' wheel thingy I can substitute. Or use the 2 deflector fairleads I already have to hand.....

 

[doug748]

The problem with deflectors, as I see it. is that they can interfere with luff tension. Obviously not critical but I was not drawn to it - particularly if it is not really necessary.
The wheel type would jam at my masthead and they may well reduce the foil /sail length to fit it in on your new set up. Dunno I think I would get a third opinion


Here is the Cox page, it says not secure but it opened for me, worth a try:

http://coxeng.co.uk/sails-and-rig/halyard-wraps/

.

 

[zoidberg]

Thanks, 'doug748'. I'd failed several times recently to open Vyv's site, due to a reported outdated security certificate. On the second try tonight, that page opened, which proved helpful.

I note from the photos that

A diverter wheel (is) located above the upper swivel, as supplied on a Facnor furling system. The deflector bullseye fairlead used previously is also visible.

I wonder why the deflector fairlead was superceded by the wheel.

 

[AMOREST]

I guess one should have 'something' to avoid the catastrophic consequences of mis management of the Furler (by one or by others) - followed by certain dismasting and death and destruction !! (and no doubt a serious donation to the RNLI)

I have diverter which I am very happy with - I have also heard of the 'loss' of the plastic wheel due to wear and tear ? - followed by the above doom and gloom.

If one is looking for as big a Fore Sail as allowable, then there is less room at the top of the stick - but one should have something in place - I guess.

 

[BabaYaga]

If one is looking for as big a Fore Sail as allowable, then there is less room at the top of the stick - but one should have something in place - I guess.

Could be wrong, but I would guess that a diverter wheel would require more space at the mast top, compared to a halyard lead on the mast.
If so, the stay would be able to accommodate a smaller sail (shorter luff).
The margins on my own set up are rather tight, but never had any wraps or other problems:

 

[Neeves]

I'm adding an inner stay at ~95% to a 40 y.o. BMU rig, with all sails ahead of the mast to be on furlers. It's unlikely the original designer had such an arrangement in mind....

I hope to fly an asy-spinnaker on occasion, but that will be set from a retractable jib-boom, Selden style, with enough clearance ahead of the genoa/forestay.

And...... Harken are perfectly entitled to profit from selling their good ESP kit. It's simply that this cheapskate bulks at paying the prices advertised for a circular plastic moulding, and am wondering what 'cheap as chips' wheel thingy I can substitute. Or use the 2 deflector fairleads I already have to hand.....

I note your ambitions.

In order to successfully add two or 3 further independent furlers to a rig for which they were not planned seems to suggest you need some new sheaves (and exits at the mast base) + new winches. You will need new clutches and need to think through the asymmetric as you may want to crank its tension to allow you to use it to windward in light winds.

I assume you have one furler already and want to add another for the inner forestay and + you also want to fly an asymmetric, on a furler. You might also, it is not clear, want to carry a 100% jib and 150% Genoa - but maybe you will use a 150% Genoa and simply reef it, roll it up, when the greater area is not needed. I raise the idea of the 150% AND 100% as you appear to want flexibility for your sail plan and a furled 150% is not very efficient - so you might be considering.....

If you already have a furler - then if it causes no anguish then you already have the means to safely and reliably furl the head sail - and are only actually considering the inner forestay and asymmetric. The asymmetric does not need a diverter - it can furl round its own luff, anti-torque (there are other well proved methods, twin luff cords....??). Which means you may only be worrying about the inner fore stay........???

I wonder why not a simple hanked on sail for the inner forestay that you attach in a well designed sail bag such that it can be raised from the cockpit - but removed completely when no storms are forecast (reducing windage and devices that can fail). Similarly the asymmetric - many are stored when not in use and are easy to rig and raise - 'every', well almost, multihull has one, often on continuous cord furlers (which must have a name - but I forget). For the asymmetric all you need are 2 very good swivels (think more money) and the dyneema halyard, clutch and horn cleat (or spare winch)

There are many ways to skin a cat. . But having 3 furlers does seem excessive, adding to windage, weight where you do not need it and a recipe for emptying your wallet.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

Aye, Jonathan

Like the proverbial 'curate's egg', you're good in parts. I'll reply in more detail, and privately...