HALLBERG RASSY - why good?

[snooks]

Most recently, locking out of Arzal with a HR42, we arrived in Port Haliguen 30 minutes before them after a 40 mile beat into a F6.

So many variables, sorry it's not even worth comparing.

You may be a crack helmsman, then may be a cack helmsman, they may have a marine farm on the bottom of their HR, your boats could be as clean as a whistle. They could be loaded for cruising round the world you could be day sailing. They might have been reefed for comfort/hove to to put the kettle on, taken the scenic route....Sorry what was your point again?

Fact is that HR build better boats with a a heavier lay up and a kinder hull design. So while a Jeanneau would slam and shudder, a HR wouldn't

 

[halcyon]

Choice of car brands was deliberate. Illustrates that the reality does not always match the image! If you did the same type of survey on new yachts you might find a similar picture with Bav/Ben/Jen out scoring more prestigious brands. Not that I have a great deal of faith in such surveys as the sample is self selecting. Rankings from fleet operators and warranty companies is arguably more reliable as it is derived from real data. However, very difficult to collect reliable data from such as small and fragmented sector as boats.

My point is back in the 80's /90's when I supplied Westerly, going on board boats in build, the big Westerly finish and material were about the same as the HR , when looked over at the boat show. Yet we always grouped Westerly with the Jan/Bav/Ben range, not the HR build standard, the result was Westerly failed to sell against one group as to dear, the other as they were the wrong product group. We have this thing as a Nation of build status, like German cars we will pay 50% for a car because of the image, not that it's 50% better than a British built one, which we no longer have.

In this thread it's HR, Bav, Jan, Ben, no British boats.

Brian

 

[Seven Spades]

Look here's the solution go to the Boat show step on board an HR or Malo and if you can't tell the difference buy a French boat.

 

[CFarr]

Fact is that HR build better boats with a a heavier lay up and a kinder hull design. So while a Jeanneau would slam and shudder, a HR wouldn't

Quote from my BiL (who usually sails modern charter boats) after a delivery of an HR352 around a particularly windy Cape St.Vincent was;
'She just got better and better as the weather got worse'
F6/7, 4/5 Metre seas, no problem.
Unfortunately, out of my price bracket too.

 

[Sailfree]

Full Circle What will you do with the sole boards -re vaneer them?

Can anyone explain the sea cock options and what best please?

 

[Seven Spades]

As I understand it Brass is for fresh water only. Bronze is best and DZR is cheaper than bronze but has a shorter life. Plastic is available but I wonder if it will become still and brittle, I hope that plastic will actually be the best option, but I am waiting to hear the results of longer term use. I plan to replace my DZR with bronze but I would like to use plastic...

 

[prv]

Can anyone explain the sea cock options and what best please?

Brass is not suitable for use in seawater, but is fitted by a distressing number of manufacturers because the European Recreational Craft Directive says it's ok if the seacocks fail after five years.

Bronze and DZR are both acceptable. DZR tends to be somewhat cheaper than bronze, but I haven't heard any serious suggestion that it's less good.

Glass-reinforced plastic is immune from corrosion issues, but bulkier than metal valves and not fireproof (but then, a GRP hull is not fireproof either).

Non-glass-reinforced plastic skin fittings (not valves) are available on chandlers' shelves, but should only be used (if at all) high up in the topsides away from the waterline.

Pete

 

[Salty John]

I hope that plastic will actually be the best option, but I am waiting to hear the results of longer term use. I plan to replace my DZR with bronze but I would like to use plastic...

Marelon seacocks by Forespar are my seacock of choice. No problems with corrosion or galvanic activity and minimal maintenance. Brass seacocks shouldn't be used anywhere in my opinion.

 

[Seven Spades]

here is a good resource:-

http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/BrassandBronze.aspx

 

[Tranona]

Can anyone explain the sea cock options and what best please?

DZR is the most commonly used material in UK and is freely available. Unfortunately it looks like brass as the difference is the addition of arsenic which means it does not dezincify. The only downsides is that the handles are usually one mild steel and they are not serviceable so need to be operated regularly to stop them from seizing. Because of the physical similarity to plain brass, you need to buy from a reliable source.

Non metallic alternatives are common in USA and Australia/New Zealand, mainly because DZR is not freely available there and bronze is so expensive. As already noted some designs are physically bigger, but others like Trudesign are the same size as DZR. Being ball valves they need operating regularly. The main downside in the UK is the higher cost, particularly of the US sourced ones which are typically 50% higher than DZR. If you have a metal hulled boat then non metallic valves are probably the preferred option, but for a GRP hull DZR is fine.

 

[FullCircle]

Full Circle What will you do with the sole boards -re vaneer them?

Can anyone explain the sea cock options and what best please?

No, the veneer process required means you have to put a backing veneer on, as well as the decorative face. As it is Teak and Holly, the layup would have to be manual.

Second reason is that my boards, although CNC cut, are not a great fit, and I want to ensure smaller gaps. In addition, I am having them made with proper ring pull lifts, and a locking method to prevent them just flying round the cabin (very dramatic, but I do store stuff in the bilge areas there are)

Therefore, I am going to buy Robbins Sole boards, probably in 12mm. Around £500 plus around £200 to get them sprayed at a local French Polishing company.

 

[beausoleil]

Buyer beware.
Having only sailed for 30 + years I recently (2011) made the biggest mistake of my sailing life. Bought a new French 40', unfortunately to many issues to list why the choice was wrong. The reason for this post is that after losing close to 50% of the purchase price after eventually selling back to the trade (no private offers in nearly 2 years) I am so happy to now be back on a HR. In my opinion it's not just "you get what you pay for" it's all about understanding what you can also loose.
As for the the sums, the original Invoice for the HR in 2001 was very close to what I have just paid. Enjoy your sailing on whatever you have

 

[oldharry]

When you have sailed an HR you will know. Everything - and I mean everything, has been carefully planned and thought through, built to a high standard and is more 'right' than any other boat I sailed. There may be boats that go faster, quite a lot faster in some cases, but the HR will get you there comfortably when a go fast has had to turn back. There can be few boats with better thought out accommodation.

 

[prv]

There can be few boats with better thought out accommodation.

I crewed on a delivery trip on one about ten years ago. I remember being very impressed with the layout on the afternoon before we left - the owner's wife and a friend were in the galley cooking lunch, I had the chart table in bits wiring up the various electronic toys the owner had brought with him, another member of the crew was head and shoulders into the engine bay checking over the mechanical stuff, and the owner and various HR staff were constantly up and down the companionway with paperwork, small parts, etc etc. On many 36' boats we would all have been in each other's way at the aft end of the cabin, but on this boat there was no conflict at all.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

My point is back in the 80's /90's when I supplied Westerly, going on board boats in build, the big Westerly finish and material were about the same as the HR , when looked over at the boat show. Yet we always grouped Westerly with the Jan/Bav/Ben range, not the HR build standard, the result was Westerly failed to sell against one group as to dear, the other as they were the wrong product group. We have this thing as a Nation of build status, like German cars we will pay 50% for a car because of the image, not that it's 50% better than a British built one, which we no longer have.

In this thread it's HR, Bav, Jan, Ben, no British boats.

Brian

Many reasons why Westerly never managed to establish themselves in the premium end of the market, despite producing well designed boats. That sector of the market buys into the package and HR managed to establish themselves with a strong home market, a clearly defined concept and secure business practices. Westerly tried to move from a mass market philosophy without developing a coherent model strategy. Not helped by failing to build an international following and then going through a series of failures and reconstructions during which many people lost lots of money. Buyers in this market value the security of a product that is always in demand and has a ready secondhand market.

Does not mean that British builders can't do the same sort of thing - witness the success of Oyster, Sunseeker, Princess and Fairline which all seem to have established a strong following. You could perhaps also add Rustler and until recently Southerly to that list. However, recent events show how difficult it is to survive even when you have carved what seems to be a secure place in the market.

 

[Sybarite]

One of the few brands that I could see us selling our boat to buy....after a lottery win

Amel 64 or HR 64; that's the dilemma.

 

[Sailfree]

No, the veneer process required means you have to put a backing veneer on, as well as the decorative face. As it is Teak and Holly, the layup would have to be manual.

Second reason is that my boards, although CNC cut, are not a great fit, and I want to ensure smaller gaps. In addition, I am having them made with proper ring pull lifts, and a locking method to prevent them just flying round the cabin (very dramatic, but I do store stuff in the bilge areas there are)

Therefore, I am going to buy Robbins Sole boards, probably in 12mm. Around £500 plus around £200 to get them sprayed at a local French Polishing company.

Apologies for using this thread for some slight drift.

I believe we both have Jeanneau's. Mine are teak and holly on marine ply and a bad fit in places. I was going to re-vaneer the top with teak & holly vaneer and add edging to a few of the boards which with some trimming should achieve better fits. As the Marine Ply has been durable - just cosmetic damage - having difficulty justifying cost of replacing. I am also taliking about the cost for a 43' Is there something I have missed?

Cutting new sheets to correct shape and getting them varnished almost equal work content to rub down and extra layer of vaneer. Mind you never tackled such a job so talking from little experience!

 

[Carl Edwards]

It appears that this has turned into a HR versus Jeanneau. Fine by me. I don't have either, but I am soon to be in the market.

I would love a spacious 44-46 footer to potter around our shores then probably the Med for a hand full of years.
Two up with the good lady who is, of course, a fair weather sailor.
For my budget of circa 150k I could either opt for an early 1990's HR ( if I'm lucky ) or a mid 2000 Jeanneau.

Can you see my dilemma ?

 

[beausoleil]

RE your dilemma,
Quality v's space / size?
I don't know of a HR owner that has any regrets.

 

[Fittster]

I guess it depends what you want to do with your boat.

If like most of us your going to be doing a bit of pottering around the coast when the weathers nice in the summer I don't really understand why you'd want to pay a premium for a yacht whose strengths are it performance in heavy weather. It's not as if anything over a F5 results in everyone on a Jeanneau immediate dying, even if moored up.

By the same token I don't understand why people who spend their lives behind desks buy huge watches designed to go to the bottom of the sea or people who never go near a track/autobahn buy sports cars that will do 200mph.

Each to their own.