Halcyon 27 or Contessa 26?

You can pick up a nice folk boat derivative for 4-6k.
For 10k you should look at more modern things, Sadler 26 etc.
I see a Sadler 29 for 12k on apollo duck, a far better prospect if there is a woman involved.
 
The Sadler 29 looks really nice. Having never owned a yacht, and the fact that due to budget I'm looking at a relatively old boat a long encapsulated lead keel holds the attraction of no keel bolts to worry about. I have chartered a Sadler 32 for a week in the past though and I have to that it sailed lovely.
 
Sea badger said:
Thanks for reply. do you mean the marieholm / IF or the Contessa 26 / halcyon 27. Thanks
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All of the above. Cramped long keelers are worth FA these days, and as a fairly recent seller of this type I know.
A co26 is a day sailer unless you are a midget.

Forget asking prices,
 
Don't be charmed by the whole (lack of) keel bolt business. Nearly every boat made in living memory has keel bolts. Bit like not having a manual choke on your car any more.
Encapsulated keels are inefficient.
 
Sorry to add more confusion but: When we were buying our first boat about 14 years ago, we looked at the Contessa 26 and Halcyon 27 as we thought that they were the boat we wanted/needed; we were definitely going to go for a halcyon - more spacious and prices were better, we perceived that then (I'm not sure about now?) the Contessas were attracting a price premium based on their name.

In the end we bought neither as in the nick of time, we saw a boat test/article about the Albin Vega, spent two hours looking at one and shortly after bought one ourselves; we perceived it as much more spacious than either the Halcyon or the Contessa, they were certainly more attractively priced and as new sailors buying our first boat, the Vega offered the benefit of a very large, active and helpful owners club (Google VAGB) as an added bonus. We subsequently found that Spring Fever could consistently out-sail both the Halcyon and the Contessa - it outpaced Nicholson 26's too.
 
Unless you are racing an encapsulated keel is the way to go.Keel bolts and joints of keel to hull are another sauce of worry.I have an Albino Vega that sails very well and has good accommodation for two.
 
doug748 said:
No, not a true Folkboat. Tord Sunden drew out the Folkboat lines and increased the topsides (amongst other things) for the the Marieholm International Folkboat. The boat was immensely popular and hull numbers may have topped 3 thousand. These are fairly common in the UK, often referred to as an IF Boat.

The boat of which, I think, Jumbleduck speaks is the 26 as mentioned above.
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I am duly corrected - thanks.
 
ridgy said:
Don't be charmed by the whole (lack of) keel bolt business. Nearly every boat made in living memory has keel bolts. Bit like not having a manual choke on your car any more.
Encapsulated keels are inefficient.
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Can you give us any examples of keel failure on an encapsulated long keeler?

I am still trying to think of something less stupid to say about car chokes.
 
zikzik said:
Can you give us any examples of keel failure on an encapsulated long keeler?
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The comment was that encapsulated long keels are (usually) inefficient, not that they fail. However, like everything they are not completely trouble free, particularly if the boat is either badly built or the ballast is steel punchings rather than a lead or iron casting. There are plenty of examples of failed encapsulated keels where water has got in and corroded the ballast with the inevitable result.

Encapsulted long keels were only popular for a very short period in the evolution of small yachts and only came about because it was easy to replicate the then popular wooden designs in GRP. However it imposes severe limitations in design and manufacture and designers very quickly moved away from the idea as soon as they discovered ways of making boats that appealed to a wider market using efficient bolt on foils for keels.

So, having an encapsulated keel as a "must" severely limits choice and for most people there are much more attractive boats available with bolt on keels - indeed probably 90%+ of boats available do not have encapsulated keels and owners seem pretty happy with their choice!
 
Tranona said:
- indeed probably 90%+ of boats available do not have encapsulated keels and owners seem pretty happy with their choice!
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Do the 90% in question actually have a choice.?:D Anyway, I do agree other than not having to battle rust, the advantages of encapsulated keels are a minor consideration in the bigger picture of choosing a boat.
 
'Do the 90% in question actually have a choice.?'

Not really. A new long keeler with high ballast ratio would be a low volume, expensive boat, totally over the top for the charter market, I guess one of the biggest customers for new boats?
However, someone wanting a stable, reliable sea boat able to cross oceans (none of whom, as far as I no, were midgets), A suitably sized long keeler would do nicely.

I have had both. I would not go back to a light displacement boat personally. The OP seems to think the same judging by his selection list. Just two boats seems a bit narrow though, unless he wants a small boat. Others have been mentioned and should be looked at.
 
zikzik said:
'Do the 90% in question actually have a choice.?'

Not really. A new long keeler with high ballast ratio would be a low volume, expensive boat, totally over the top for the charter market, I guess one of the biggest customers for new boats?
However, someone wanting a stable, reliable sea boat able to cross oceans (none of whom, as far as I no, were midgets), A suitably sized long keeler would do nicely.

I have had both. I would not go back to a light displacement boat personally. The OP seems to think the same judging by his selection list. Just two boats seems a bit narrow though, unless he wants a small boat. Others have been mentioned and should be looked at.
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Confused thinking here maybe? Bolt on keels does not necessarily mean light displacement and equally encapsulated keels are found on light displacement boats.

Not sure where crossing oceans comes into it - the OP is sailing in coastal waters. How many people actually sail across oceans in these little old fashioned boats rather than just imagining they might? Plenty of examples of people sailing oceans in boats with bolt on keels - unsurprising as the vast majority of small boats are built that way.

Think the myth comes from the early long distance sailors using that type of boat because that is what was available, not necessarily because it was best. As I suggested earlier, designers, including Giles and Holman who designed many of the successful small full keel boats quickly abandoned the idea once they discovered what was possible with properly engineered GRP structures.
 
ridgy said:
Don't be charmed by the whole (lack of) keel bolt business. Nearly every boat made in living memory has keel bolts. Bit like not having a manual choke on your car any more.
Encapsulated keels are inefficient.
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Two keels of the same shape will be exactly the same in hydrodynamic terms, regardless of their construction. In the case of a fin keel, encapsulation of the ballast will normally allow the boat to be driven faster, because the COG would be lower. An exception might be where a moulded fin carried it's external ballast bolted to the tip, not a common form.

We cannot be too sniffy about bolt on keels they have played their part in bringing down the cost of new boat ownership. If you race you will want a deep, high aspect fin so you have little choice in the matter. Into the bargain you can have a flat floor to your boat which could be useful downwind but will help it slam nicely and give you little bilge space.
You had also best pick cast iron if you plan to regularly dry out a bilge keeler.
There is no question that a screw on keel can be made adequately strong to withstand high impact but a lot are not. In Port Crouesty, this summer, I saw a line of boats without keels being re-fettled, it is a rugged coast.

Students of the theme might like to Google:

Keels

- bent
- cracked
- rusted
- loose
- painting
- leaking
- caulking
- loss of

Keelbolts

- replacement
- testing
- weeping
- corrosion
 
ridgy said:
....A co26 is a day sailer unless you are a midget.
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Above.
Bolt on keels does not necessarily mean light displacement - but they often are, relying much more on form stability.

Its not a myth, have a read of the Adlard Coles book 'Heavy Weather Sailing'.

Anyway. I would agree with others who have said for the OP's first boat, his 10K can be more suitably spent on a more modern design, like the Sadler 26 /29 mentioned. You really need to want a Contessa 26 or similar to buy one and spend that needed to upgrade it into a worthwhile long term boat.
 
Tranona said:
The comment was that encapsulated long keels are (usually) inefficient, not that they fail. However, like everything they are not completely trouble free, particularly if the boat is either badly built or the ballast is steel punchings rather than a lead or iron casting. There are plenty of examples of failed encapsulated keels where water has got in and corroded the ballast with the inevitable result.

Encapsulted long keels were only popular for a very short period in the evolution of small yachts and only came about because it was easy to replicate the then popular wooden designs in GRP. However it imposes severe limitations in design and manufacture and designers very quickly moved away from the idea as soon as they discovered ways of making boats that appealed to a wider market using efficient bolt on foils for keels.

So, having an encapsulated keel as a "must" severely limits choice and for most people there are much more attractive boats available with bolt on keels - indeed probably 90%+ of boats available do not have encapsulated keels and owners seem pretty happy with their choice!
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A lot of early 1970's grp boats - the 19' Sea Wych is a prime example - had particularly vertical twin keels - which could be vertically lifted from the mould, so seagoing performance was a distinct second.

The Sea Wych is by no means unique, this was a trend at the time; so a lot of designers went the easy way and came up with fin keelers easily made, whether the deep water moorings or marina berths were affordable or not.

Unsurprisingly most of these deep water designs have diappeared from the Solent & East Coast, the decent ones migrating to deep water places like Wales, Scotland & Ireland if not further afield like Scandinavia.

The problems with an ecapsulated, moulded keel have been mentioned, as in steel grounding shoes ( in a perfect world, bonded in dry conditions not through bolted ) are near but essential on twin keelers with moulded keel Seawyches on the grp or bolts would possibly allow salt water into the contained ballast, with potentially horrible consequences like rust expansion ' exploding ' the grp partly away ; - no effect to the boat's' buoyancy and staying afloat but a right pain to sort out.This can be sorted but needs the advice of a surveyor, might not be more than a couple of hundred £ but all your lives depend on it.

If it's any compensation, bolt on keels can involve much more expense and hassle !

Either way, keels are not examptly something one would skimp on, the whole crews' lives depend on this; if in doubt keep the boat out of the water until next year, plenty of people here and at clubs will be willing to take you all out for a spin in the meantime and it's an opportunity to sample other boats.
 
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My Nic 26 has an encapsulated keel. I'm pleased it does. I'm willing to put up with the problems of a long deep ( for a 26 footer) keel. I've been tempted to change from time to time, but her ability to point and look after me in "trying" times keeps me loyal.
 
Both Co26 and Halcyon 27 are good boats. You are presumably happy to go the single keel route for performance rather than the more Bristol Channel-friendly bilge keel way. Look at all the options, many many more boats around, ranging from other long-keelers (Elizabethan 29, Trintellas, Cutlass, Vega etc) to 1970s/80s fin and skeg cruiser-racers, which tend to be faster, more spacious, yet still can be very seaworthy. Think of Albin Ballads, Hustler 30s, She 31s etc. In fact in a gale off the North Cornish coast I think I'd rather be in a Ballad, Hustler or She than a slower long-keeler.

Whatever you go for buy on hull/deck/rig/sails/engine condition rather than go looking for any specific model........
 
I too, sail in the Bristol Channel ( Trintella 29, but smaller boats earlier ). It is not a forgiving sea and you do need a bit of weight and pointing ability to make progress through it, as you frequently have a tide to worry about, which you don't really have on the South Coast. ( No... really !!) I also value the standing headroom.
Ken
 
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