Haggling - asking price & offer prices

[BristolDiver]

Slowly moving towards a first boat purchase, but finding it hard work reading between the lines to determine sensible offer pricing. When I bought my wife her first new car in our youth I dutifully handed over the asking price and have never quite forgiven myself, after getting all very un-british and haggling around 20% in more recent times. However, I can't figure out the boat market. Is there any way of figuring out what prices things are really selling for?

Have seen a number of Sigma 362s available for sale over the last few months with typical asking pricing around 50k, some had been asking considerably more. These asking prices don't seem to have budged much in the last 5 years if older magazine articles are to believed.

I'd noted older posts mentioning 10-30% as sensible, but that is quite a difference.

Would an offer around 30% less be a complete insult? (less 15k on a 50k asking price).

 

[monkfish24]

Haggle HARD!

Slowly moving towards a first boat purchase, but finding it hard work reading between the lines to determine sensible offer pricing. When I bought my wife her first new car in our youth I dutifully handed over the asking price and have never quite forgiven myself, after getting all very un-british and haggling around 20% in more recent times. However, I can't figure out the boat market. Is there any way of figuring out what prices things are really selling for?

Have seen a number of Sigma 362s available for sale over the last few months with typical asking pricing around 50k, some had been asking considerably more. These asking prices don't seem to have budged much in the last 5 years if older magazine articles are to believed.

I'd noted older posts mentioning 10-30% as sensible, but that is quite a difference.

Would an offer around 30% less be a complete insult? (less 15k on a 50k asking price).

Anyhting in this life is only worth what someone is willing to pay....

We've had our boat "diadem" for 2 weeks now. asking price was 8k we paid roughly 75% of the asking price!

best thing to do is look at the website it is being advertised on, there will always be little clues like a "last edited/amended" such and such date. Ask the broker/seller if he has had any offers and when, you will never be told the price as he will obviously want the best price and try to gauge thier reaction. Body language does show a lot in the high pressure world of sales

Always start low becuase you can go higher, if you start high you can't go back down

 

[Iota]

Based on my own experience of selling one boat and buying another this year I would start at 80 - 85 % of asking and be prepared to go up to between 90 - 95% of asking. Be prepared to walk away at any time. depends on how badly you want the boat and how much interest the boat has. We missed out on several because we took over a week to think before we made an offer.

regardless enjoy and welcome to the wortld of the bottomless wallet pit

 

[SimbaDog]

You can always haggle & most sellers should be open to sensible offers, however, don't think you will get a huge discount now as good boats are still fetching highish prices due to overseas buyers & the euro exchange rates.
Probably most important is to take someone knowledgeable with you when looking if you can & make sure that any offer is made subject to survey.
There are some nice yachts for sale, but also some dogs!
If you are after a 362, look at the new sail*ng t*day mag, they have a feature on them

 

[David_Jersey]

Short answer: their is no magic answer (but you knew that already )

Long answer: depends.........

The question also has to be answered how much is the boat worth on the open market and how much to you - no easy / quick way of knowing this, best is to study the adverts over time, both for "Your" model and equivalents (up and down in size and quality). And noting price reductions / length of hanging around - but a blunt tool unless you see every boat in person and can assess it well as you won't know if the £50k is for a genuine top conditon model, needs a little bit of TLC or is a mess (adverts are not always honest)..........boat owners do tend to delude themselves on value / condition But truth be told, generally a good condition boat will sell for more and also quicker than a poor condition example. Oh, and position can also affect value - relocating a boat from Scotland to the SOlent (and vice verce) is not free........

IMO the best way is with a spreadsheet Make a list of all the stuff you need / want working on board or simply within a certain age range (ie sails 3 years not 10) and then put a cash value against each to bring the boat you are looking at up to your spec. Only way to compare a boat with a 3 year old engine and a new foresail against a boat with a 10 year old engine and a new autopilot, but no fridge.

30% on a £50k boat = down to £35k? I think a reasonable tester, if someone need the cash (strapped / divorce / new toy) - or if the boat is only really worth £30k then will be tempted.

IMO would depend on how the offer was made, looking serious would be a good idea by knowing what you are looking at before survey, then being clear you can move quickly and being clear that only major problems (missing keel etc ) would in any survey would halt the sale. Simply "revealing" that on a 10 year old boat many things are 10 years old and will want replacing / updating / maintanence sooner rather than later will not be a "surprise" deal breaker / renogotiating opportunity.

If I recall correctly I paid £20k for my boat, in truth her open market value was probably nearer £15k But to me she was exactly what I wanted and the best value (for me) that I could find - and in any case the plan was (and still ongoing) to drop another £15k into her to make a very nice and saleable...........£25k boat But I don't care, not for sale - probably never will be - even though she has never had the use I had intended. But such is life.............

 

[jonjo]

Would an offer around 30% less be a complete insult? (less 15k on a 50k asking price).

Not in the worst recession since the 1930's. Tis very easy to do via a broker but harder for a private sale.

The whole UK secondhand boat market is over valued and prices are maintained by a variety strange belief systems that eventually crumble. We Brits don't value second hand boats with the cold rational used by Yankee boat buyers. Even at 30% off you are probably not getting a bargain when the cumulative refit costs of a 25 year yacht are factored in.

I remember chatting to a Sunday only part time lady broker in 2002. At the end of a long day she confided that she was finding it difficult to adjust to the plummeting values of Nicholsons after a career break of a few years. Essentially what happens is that certain marques develop of cult following, prices are buoyed up, then these boats get to 25 to 30 years of age at which point just about every component of the vessel becomes suspect for wear & tear replacement and prices take a tumble.

Unfortunately a Sigma 362 will be approaching the price tumble danger zone, so shop carefully.

Whatever don't fret too much, buying a boat at the correct price is far harder than buying a car or house. If the process seems difficult that is because it is, and not because you are making a hash of it.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Whatever you offer make sure it is understood that the price offered is subject to survey. A surveyor is likely to find things that are not up to scratch enabling the price to be renegotiated.

 

[paulrae]

Recent Experience

I've bought one boat and sold another quite recently.

On the sales side of things, we sold our shared Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 32.2 for the asking price in July. The buyer negotiated the inclusion of the dinghy and a nearly-new outboard, but we were prepared for an offer lower than that. Having said 'the asking price', ours was the cheapest in the UK when compared to similar age. When we bought her three years ago we offered just under 90% of the asking price. This offer was rejected immediately, but accepted three days later after it was apparent that we weren't negotiating.

On the buying side of things I acquired my current boat for 5% less than the asking price, which was very good value for the age/condition/level of equipment.

There have been previous threads on this topic. One point raised did mention offending the sensibilities of the proud owner of a boat on which your very keen with an offer he (or she) may consider 'offensive'.

As mentioned above, you really need to do your homework and work out how the particular boat on which you have your eye is valued compared to others. Have fun on the internet! Also have a look at as many of the marque as you can. It's really the only way to get a feel for the value of a particular yacht.

Good luck.

 

[Evadne]

A friend bought a boat a couple of years ago, inital asking price was something like £15k, after haggling, a survey and a dose of realism he eventually payed less that £5k. An extreme example, but most owners have surgically implanted rose tinted contact lenses when it comes to their pride and joy.

 

[Spyro]

No set formula I'm afraid, I sold a boat this year for the asking price and bought one at 80% of the asking price. I started at 75% which was a bit hopeful but it let the owner know I was serious and also made him think was he asking too much.
A lot also depends on how much you have to spend if you have Only have 40K and fancy a boat advertised at 60K you have nothing to lose by offering 40K (33% reduction) You never know your luck.

 

[JasonClark]

No set formula I'm afraid, I sold a boat this year for the asking price and bought one at 80% of the asking price. I started at 75% which was a bit hopeful but it let the owner know I was serious and also made him think was he asking too much.
A lot also depends on how much you have to spend if you have Only have 40K and fancy a boat advertised at 60K you have nothing to lose by offering 40K (33% reduction) You never know your luck.

I'm of the fool hardy school.

I offered a ridicoulously low price for my boat, so low it it was a stupid price on what the marina was asking, i went in there with a thought in my head " they can only say no". they accepted my offer!

sometimes it pays to be stupid and a bit of a cheeky git. offer them a stupidly low price and see what they say. Times are bad and all that and i have this much to bang on your office table right now speak. start at 50 % of asking price

 

[Iota]

I'm of the fool hardy school.

I offered a ridicoulously low price for my boat, so low it it was a stupid price on what the marina was asking, i went in there with a thought in my head " they can only say no". they accepted my offer!

sometimes it pays to be stupid and a bit of a cheeky git. offer them a stupidly low price and see what they say. Times are bad and all that and i have this much to bang on your office table right now speak. start at 50 % of asking price

You also take the risk of alienating the seller so much that they would rather wait for a better buyer on the grounds that everything thereafter is a negotiation, even if the offer was upped. We missed three good boats because we thought about it for a week. Good, well presented boats are selling quickly.

 

[Boat44]

As others have said, there is always a deal to be hand, just depends on the seller.

Still a good number of fire sales around.

Start low and go up, and start real low. In a "normal" market I would say expect to get her at 10% less than asking price. Today market, who knows just look at how much came off Maltese Falcon! (More than all of will earn in a life time! and still a big % of the original asking price).

I usually work around; don't ask don't get and asking price is just a point to negotiate from!

Good luck

 

[tokenjam]

Re Haggling

Does the method change whether it is a cash of finance sale - sadly these days it is less attractive for the broker to sell for cash, as if he introduces a fin co he gets some commission - is this correct?

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

The discount percentage for a typical 25 /30 footer depends on the boat price and the biggest figures are in the cheepo boats below 20k. Particularly when you get down to 10k you are looking at something old and worn. These used to be the starter boats but increasingly this market is going towards bigger new/ newish AWBs, so the old 25 footers from the 60s and 70s are really a drag on the market.

And what do you do with an old boat which you cant sell? You may well still have marina fees to pay so the boat becomes a liability not an asset.

Not long ago, in our club, a member was given a 25 foot UK built boat for nothing because it couldnt be sold after a year of advertising.

 

[Refueler]

Offer what YOU think is bottom fair.

First boat I bought - I paid approx. 75% of asking ...

Next boat I bought .... yes BOUGHT ... I offered 40% of asking price, he told me to 'go away' ... couple days later he called me back saying yes ... I then told him as I had another boat on offer I was now only going to consider 30% subject to survey ... his language was quite rich ! 7am next morning I got call saying have survey done ... we settled at 25% of his asking price.

Next I paid 50% of asking...

Next and present main boat I paid what he asked as I knew it was a good deal, he knew what boat was worth etc. He wasn't asking silly money as most sellers are.

Personally I reckon on average most boats are priced at 30+ % over real worth - and that I mean a good boat. Trouble is as we come up the AWB scales - people remember how much they spent on them over and above sail-away from dealer. Sorry - but that's tough. If you want the luxury of new boat ownership and then move it on later - buyers expect and do benefit from your wallet paying out for those goodies ... without having to compensate.

Sad life init !

 

[Wansworth]

Afaid I have not read all the threads but have been a seller who had to lower my price drastically to sell,and in the end pleased to have sold the boat.Now I am a buyer I have seen several boats laden with goodies that do not make the boat a good deal,many have electrnicsthat may or maynot last but lack a dinghy which would add value is not included,boats are so like cars once you have bought them the price drops ..alot and a certain class of boat will be priced within a close range so all manner of titivating and extras will not add real value,this is where the buyer has to be cruel and make an offer on the value of the boat and not the stuff with it...i am rambling!!!

 

[TQA]

Slowly moving towards a first boat purchase, but finding it hard work reading between the lines to determine sensible offer pricing. When I bought my wife her first new car in our youth I dutifully handed over the asking price and have never quite forgiven myself, after getting all very un-british and haggling around 20% in more recent times. However, I can't figure out the boat market. Is there any way of figuring out what prices things are really selling for?

Have seen a number of Sigma 362s available for sale over the last few months with typical asking pricing around 50k, some had been asking considerably more. These asking prices don't seem to have budged much in the last 5 years if older magazine articles are to believed.

I'd noted older posts mentioning 10-30% as sensible, but that is quite a difference.

Would an offer around 30% less be a complete insult? (less 15k on a 50k asking price).

I know nothing about Sigmas but am currently on a boat hunt in Florida and the Caribbean. I know of one boat, a popular 45 footer built in 1999 which was on offer at $150 + and this is a typical price. In commission and well equiped I know the seller will accept 110k and might go lower.

This seems to be typical to me. There may be the Dumbert who pays the asking price but most seem to sell for considerably less than the asking price. I do not know if this can be done in the UK but here it is possible to find the actual recorded selling price of a boat. [ At least the broker can through a web site called soldboat. Something to do with sales tax I think.] One boat I have on my list of possibles is usually advertised circa 115k but sells for something in the 80 according to this site.

However it is a ferocious buyers market here and many people owe more than their boat is worth. Powerboats in particular are being repoed in huge numbers including two belonging to a recently jailed local Financier.
See them here http://www.yachtauctions.com/listing.php?vessel=2944

here is a nice Hunter http://www.yachtauctions.com/listing.php?vessel=2944

Even there prices drop as banks initially try to get what they are owed then reality sets in.

Now if I can just find an repoed AMEL Maramu with a desperate seller!
r

 

[Spyro]

You also take the risk of alienating the seller so much that they would rather wait for a better buyer on the grounds that everything thereafter is a negotiation, even if the offer was upped. We missed three good boats because we thought about it for a week. Good, well presented boats are selling quickly.

I don't get this thing about Alienating a seller. It's not as if you are insulting their wife on her looks or their children on their parentage. It's only a boat. You get a low offer you think would I consider it? If not you say no thanks. take it from there. If you have a price you might come down to suggest to them a price a bit higher and then leave the ball in the buyers court.

 

[Koeketiene]

I don't get this thing about Alienating a seller. ... It's only a boat.

Only a boat

When selling our previous boat we had the odd tyre kickers and a few serious ones.
One of them used the following line when he started to negotiate: 'What you're asking is too much, I could buy a new Bavaria for that kind of money'.
My reply: 'Then you should buy a Bavaria because we're done - the wife will show you out'.

It may be different if you're dealing with someone desperate to sell, but you can insult/alienate a seller with a ridiculously low offer.