Gybing downwind or tacking downwind

[HoratioHB]

Port tack and starboard tack also have specific meanings in racing rules and colregs I believe. Whereas I'm not sure if port and starboard gybes have a particular meaning.

(or on forums, perhaps with jibes).

Certainly do old chap - like they determine the rules!!! You can be dead downwind but still on port or starboard tack as far as the colregs (or racing rules) go.

Or are you that chap in solent the some years ago on port tack but heading downwind who looked quite offended when I politely asked him to keep clear? (I was on starboard) His asinine response being 'Well I am going downwind so you must keep clear!!' He was probably confused about the windward boat rule but of course you have to be on the same tack for that to apply.

So it sorts of makes a point really you can 'tack' the boat by putting the wind through the bow, or be on port or starboard tack even dead downwind. Whereas the term Gybe only refers to the actual manoeuvre itself.

 

[RAI]

So it sorts of makes a point really you can 'tack' the boat by putting the wind through the bow, or be on port or starboard tack even dead downwind. Whereas the term Gybe only refers to the actual manoeuvre itself.

That was the point I was trying to make in my rather obscure way.

 

[halfway]

10 reasons for saying gybing down wind as opposed to tacking especially when going faster than the wind.

1. Apparent wind is not relevant to a decision. Apparent wind is a result of wind direction, wind speed, boat course, and sea conditions. It is a final outcome of a decision and obviously used to determine the final adjustments. The only near constant term in the equation is the real wind that is observed by the sea state ahead. Especially in light winds.

2. When gybing the bows are steered to move the boat around to the side that has the sail over it. In Tacking up wind the bows are moved the opposite way to the side of the boat with the sail over it. Completely different. Simplistically the tiller goes up hill.

3. So considering you want to issue a command to prepare for the next manoeuvre, why would you issue a command that was ambivalent to the required action. OK I would hope the crew was never that out of it, to not know the boat situation, but having one word for both situations is wrong.

4 Gybing while faster than the wind you have the sail between you and where you are going. Unlike tacking where you can see that elusive finish line. They are not anywhere near the same. So why call and apple an orange.

5. Why would anyone want to demonstrate that they have so little knowledge of real sailing.

6. There is a situation with faster than the wind where the boat speed falls off and neither bow or stern goes through the wind. Because there is NO apparent wind.

7. Why would you use one term while under the speed of the wind and another above the speed of the wind.

8. When gybing, during faster than the wind, the angle moved through is much larger than the equivalent up wind tacking manoeuvre. So not only is it the other way, the command has to cause the boat course to vary by more than the tack angle.

9. Dictionary definition does not say anything about apparent wind. Wind is something imagined not something that is on an instrument. Even the apparent wind at the mast top does not match the apparent wind at the sail main working area. It is a twisted vector and so is only relevant to sail shape not its overall position in the boat.

10. The phase was started by some ignorant commentators that do not know which way they are going, after some bright spark said it was like tacking.

 

[Lakesailor]

Don't know about you lot, but I tack downwind if running is a bit dicey.

 

[RAI]

Don't know about you lot, but I tack downwind if running is a bit dicey.

All the time. Running downwind single handed is dodgy, you just can't be everywhere. Once, I was writing a log entry when, bang, the boom gybed and ripped the rider of the horse. Plus that uncomfortable rolling and, in light airs, the sails slatting with every wave. Much better to head off a bit and sail in comfort and safety.

 

[BelleSerene]

The term 'tacking' has a second meaning when it relates to a course: it means to proceed towards the destination in a series of zig-zag courses. The term 'gybing' has only ever had the one meaning.

Because the idea of sailing faster to a downwind desitnation by alternately going on port and starboard tacks is a new one, there is no traditional phrase so one has been made up.

The widely accepted term 'tacking downwind' means making a downwind course by sailing on alternate tacks.

As so often, SnowLeopard sees the light. (I might argue though that 'tacking' only has his 'second meaning' because non-sailors don't understand the bit about wind direction, and so this isn't a second meaning to sailors.)

I would have said that the correct term for a zig-zag course was beating. So, beating downwind anyone? Tis the term I use.

Sorry, no: beating is just sailing uncomfortably close to the wind and has nothing to do with changing course, whether through or round the back of the wind.

If the question's about what we *should* use, rather than what we recognise when it's said, then Fireball has it, and it's very simple:

Originally Posted by fireball
By convention:
A tack is when the wind (apparent) passes around the front of the mast - ie across the bow - you can tell this quite easily because the sails flap....

A Gybe is when the wind (apparent) passes around the back of the mast - ie across the stern - you can tell this quite easily because the sails do not flap

So 'tacking downwind', whilst understood by racers, is confused and confusing. Perhaps we should reserve 'tacking downwind' for doing 270-degree turns downwind in a blow, to preserve sanity and the boat.

 

[Jane Farraday]

I'm pretty sure you're gybing, as it's your stern that's moving through the wind.

 

[HoratioHB]

10 reasons for saying gybing down wind as opposed to tacking especially when going faster than the wind.

1. Apparent wind is not relevant to a decision. Apparent wind is a result of wind direction, wind speed, boat course, and sea conditions. It is a final outcome of a decision and obviously used to determine the final adjustments. The only near constant term in the equation is the real wind that is observed by the sea state ahead. Especially in light winds.

2. When gybing the bows are steered to move the boat around to the side that has the sail over it. In Tacking up wind the bows are moved the opposite way to the side of the boat with the sail over it. Completely different. Simplistically the tiller goes up hill.

3. So considering you want to issue a command to prepare for the next manoeuvre, why would you issue a command that was ambivalent to the required action. OK I would hope the crew was never that out of it, to not know the boat situation, but having one word for both situations is wrong.

4 Gybing while faster than the wind you have the sail between you and where you are going. Unlike tacking where you can see that elusive finish line. They are not anywhere near the same. So why call and apple an orange.

5. Why would anyone want to demonstrate that they have so little knowledge of real sailing.

6. There is a situation with faster than the wind where the boat speed falls off and neither bow or stern goes through the wind. Because there is NO apparent wind.

7. Why would you use one term while under the speed of the wind and another above the speed of the wind.

8. When gybing, during faster than the wind, the angle moved through is much larger than the equivalent up wind tacking manoeuvre. So not only is it the other way, the command has to cause the boat course to vary by more than the tack angle.

9. Dictionary definition does not say anything about apparent wind. Wind is something imagined not something that is on an instrument. Even the apparent wind at the mast top does not match the apparent wind at the sail main working area. It is a twisted vector and so is only relevant to sail shape not its overall position in the boat.

10. The phase was started by some ignorant commentators that do not know which way they are going, after some bright spark said it was like tacking.

I think the point here is that there are two MANOEUVRES - tacking and gybing. But when proceeding downwind on ALTERNATE TACKS rather than proceeding dead downwind this is a method of sailing. You could get onto the alternate tacks by tacking each time rather than gybing I think most of us have been in the situation where its too bloody dangerous to gybe and so go the long way round to get the boat on the other downind tack. But whichever manoeuvre you use you are still sailing the boat on a zigzag on alternate tacks. So' downwind tacking' does make quite a lot of sense. Oh and this ignorant commentator (or bright spark - take your pick) has been using this sailing term for over fourty years as have many of his freinds.

 

[halfway]

HoratioHB: "so go the long way round"

That was not quite what we were talking about. But I think you have given the 11th reason for not calling a gybe a tack. Thank you.


Sorry, I have never been around the wrong way ever. Gybing just is not dangerous on our boat. However, it takes a little longer, but in the end probably less time and danger than having full sails up with the wind a beam of the boat

 

[Danny Jo]

So how do you suggest I respond when Freestyle is running before, and the speed freak on the helm says to me "Permission to tack downwind, Skip?" There is no doubt that he is asking for permission to depart from the course I have set, in favour of one aimed at improving the VMG downwind, or failing that, improving comfort, safety and ease of helming without sacrificing much VMG downwind. He or she would regard me as an idiot if I interpreted it as a request to come up into the wind and go about onto the other tack.

Language is what people use to communicate with each other, not what they should use.

 

[Ubergeekian]

So how do you suggest I respond when Freestyle is running before, and the speed freak on the helm says to me "Permission to tack downwind, Skip?" There is no doubt that he is asking for permission to depart from the course I have set, in favour of one aimed at improving the VMG downwind, or failing that, improving comfort, safety and ease of helming without sacrificing much VMG downwind. He or she would regard me as an idiot if I interpreted it as a request to come up into the wind and go about onto the other tack.

If he changed tack to do to this, would you expect him to say "Ready about" or "Standby to gybe"?

 

[snowleopard]

When sailing on a broad reach with the wind coming over the Starboard quarter, do you refer to this as being on the 'starboard tack' or 'starboard gybe'? (if you reply 'Port tack', please leave now ).

 

[Ubergeekian]

2. When gybing the bows are steered to move the boat around to the side that has the sail over it. In Tacking up wind the bows are moved the opposite way to the side of the boat with the sail over it. Completely different.

And when you're sailing by the lee?

 

[HoratioHB]

And when you're sailing by the lee?

If the boom is still on, say the port side then you are still on starboard tack.

 

[mollyoxford]

I've always called the zigzagging downwind on alternate gybes it 'going gybe and gybe'. Dunno who I picked this up from... My main problem has been convincing some cruisy types to actually DO it.....