"Guts"

awol

awol

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I found this lovely quotation from the 1930s on the Clyde Cruising Club history webpage upon their digression into racing:
"Successful Ocean Racing puts a premium on a sound well-found craft which can if necessary keep the sea in bad weather, good navigation, careful detail, organisation and a crew who combine first class seamanship with teamwork and "guts". As a club whose primary object is the encouragement of cruising these are qualifies we wish to develop"
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I'm not sure that modern marina-bound AWB sailors would put a premium on these qualities, especially "guts", and wonder what qualities today's sailor actually needs apart from a suitable level of disposable income to afford the boat, marina and electronic gizmos.
 
The thing is that today,

Successful Ocean Racing puts a premium on a light, powerful craft which can if necessary be driven hard in bad weather, good electronic systems, careful detail, organisation and a crew who combine first class seamanship with teamwork and the wisdom to know when to push, and when to back off.

So if you want to cruise in the 1930s, and agree with the CCC's approach, more power to you. But my preference is to sail in the 21st century.

I also question the wisdom of championing "guts" as an admirable quality in cruising sailors. I would have thought "prudence" would be a better choice of words. I am sure that I will go out and race - probably alone - in conditions that would keep me in harbour if I were cruising, particularly with the family.

I really find the arrogance of the MAB crew tiresome. You use the phrase "marina-bound AWB sailors" as a term of derision. I see nothing wrong with people who own AWBs and choose to keep them in marinas, and choose to sail only in a sunny F3. I also see nothing wrong with those who keep their wooden gaffers on a drying mooring, or their MAB on swinging mooring. Their choices wouldn't be mine, but I don't think I'll criticise them for it.
 
awol said:
I'm not sure that modern marina-bound AWB sailors would put a premium on these qualities, especially "guts",
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Funny you should say that because every time I've been out in heavier weather this year all I've seen is a small handful of AWBs. Not a single long keeler.

I think that's pretty typical. I think I know why it is as well, but that's another argument!
 
The weekend in august I was out in the med in a F7 (Cabo Greus) we saw just one other boat. That was also a gaff rigged long keeler. They had an ensign I did not recognize and looked they were kitted up (full set of oilskins) to sail to the artic circle.

There were no other boats to be seen. It was the best sailing we had all year (8kts SOG closed hauled against the prevailing current)

Needless to say normally the area is swarming with AWB motoring and MOBOs
.
 
There Were Far More More Guts Around When I was Young

I find the necessary amount of guts completely lacking these days especially when I compare my early sailing activities with my children's abilities today. I blame it on over fishing personally rather than lack of skill. A quick swill of the bucket clears the guts away today, but with an empty belly. Give me a cockpit ankle deep in intestines any time with nothing more than a bent pin and tinfoil.

A Lament On The Demise Of The Silver Darling

ps - A foromite used to have a web link to "how to fish off a boat" on his signature, or something like that. Can someone post the link here please?
 
michaelchapman said:
Needless to say normally the area is swarming with AWB motoring and MOBOs
.
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And your point was? :confused:

Maybe (off the top of my head) some people don't want/have to go sailing in a F7?

Maybe they had seen the forecast, and thought that the were going to enjoy that day of their holiday somewhere else.

Is that a problem? Or do you think that because someone owns a boat they should use it every day no matter what the weather is?

We were sailing at the beginning of this week is Sweden, in a F7 (39 knots TWS), in a brand new GRP boat with a :shock horror: fin keel!...we didn't see anyone else out there!

Guess that means we're nails. :D
 
snooks said:
And your point was? :confused:
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My reply was to todie who says he nevers sees a long keeler in heavy weather.

Maybe (off the top of my head) some people don't want/have to go sailing in a F7?

Maybe they had seen the forecast, and thought that the were going to enjoy that day of their holiday somewhere else.
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Quite probable.

Is that a problem? Or do you think that because someone owns a boat they should use it every day no matter what the weather is?
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Of course it is not a problem. It is their boat - so they do what they want when they want as far as I am concerned.

We were sailing at the beginning of this week is Sweden, in a F7 (39 knots TWS), in a brand new GRP boat with a :shock horror: fin keel!...we didn't see anyone else out there!
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Good for you.

For me Sweden in November sounds cold and pretty dark most of the day.

Guess that means we're nails. :D
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I don't understand that expression.
 
michaelchapman said:
My reply was to todie who says he nevers sees a long keeler in heavy weather.
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Sorry Michael, I didn't realise your reply was directed at toady, at this end it sounded derogatory to AWB and MOBO owners who weren't out enjoying the F7 with you. :rolleyes:

michaelchapman said:
I don't understand that expression.
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Nails - As hard as nails....or we're hard men! :D
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Funny you should say that because every time I've been out in heavier weather this year all I've seen is a small handful of AWBs. Not a single long keeler.

I think that's pretty typical. I think I know why it is as well, but that's another argument!
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Funnily enough, I see a high proportion of MABs, or rathet old timber boats out when the wind is up. It's not that I don't see AWBs, at the same time, just fewer of them.

I suspect that less experienced sailors have AWBs, so that generally the numbers of AWBs out in heavy weather reduces more that the MAB crowd.

Last weekend end I cam back from London in SW 6-8 p'haps 9, and only saw one other boat in the Thames estuary. A big newish cutter, may have been a long keeoler but more likely a long fin and skeg configuration, neither a AWB or MAB. What does that mean?
 
bbg said:
I really find the arrogance of the MAB crew tiresome. You use the phrase "marina-bound AWB sailors" as a term of derision.
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I entirely agree with you BBG and I don't sail what would normally be referred to as an AWB. That said, I don't think you help your case by referring to MABs :D

"Guts" is relative. When someone who is frightened of heights goes up a mast, it requires guts. I'm not frightened of heights so all I require is a bosuns chair. It's the same with sailing.

Guts = conquering your own fears not someone else's idea of what takes courage.

And in any case, what's wrong with simply not deciding to push yourself? I was out today in 30knots and roughish seas, but I had 4 crew and we were racing. No courage required - the boat and crew can handle it. I would not have even coinsidered going out in such conditions in summer with SWMBO and myself on board. It would be dangerous becauise 2 of us would struggle to cope with the boat. So do I have guts in winter and none in summer?

What a load of macho cobblers
 
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awol said:
I found this lovely quotation from the 1930s on the Clyde Cruising Club history webpage upon their digression into racing:

I'm not sure that modern marina-bound AWB sailors would put a premium on these qualities, especially "guts", and wonder what qualities today's sailor actually needs apart from a suitable level of disposable income to afford the boat, marina and electronic gizmos.
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I think the statement has to be put in context correctly for the period, which was before the advent of electronic kit to replace streamed mechanical logs, hand leads, plus efficient cabin heating, reliable inboard engines, automatic bilge pumps, electric windlasses, efficient four weather gear, and not to forget the luxury of self tailing winches instead of hauling on natural fibre ropes that put real callouses on your hands.

That's enough to think about.

I will shut up now..:eek:
 
VO5 said:
I think the statement has to be put in context correctly for the period, which was before the advent of electronic kit to replace streamed mechanical logs, hand leads, plus efficient cabin heating, reliable inboard engines, automatic bilge pumps, electric windlasses, efficient four weather gear, and not to forget the luxury of self tailing winches instead of hauling on natural fibre ropes that put real callouses on your hands.

That's enough to think about.

I will shut up now..:eek:
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Yes context is very important and I agree with the above. However in the same context, in those days racing to windward pretty well stopped at F7 and if possible they found somewhere to anchor and shelter (it was allowed as long as no outside assistance or engine use) or they would heave too or lay a-hull.. Modern plastic fantastics have long since continued racing upwind in full gales and even with the poor unfortunate banana eaters still sitting on the rail.

Personally a modern all out racer isn't my cup of tea, but don't lets get in the trap of thinking only a long keeled heavyweight can survive because that is wrong. Read Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing to see the trials and tribulations of early ocean racing in these boats before condemning modern designs.
 
bbg said:
You use the phrase "marina-bound AWB sailors" as a term of derision.
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(Sorry I've been out all day racing.)

You may infer derision from my choice of words - I think that says more about you than me - but the description was intended to simply contrast with the era from which the quote was taken. Neither did I champion "guts" as a desirable quality for the modern day.

How you lot turn my original post into a MAB v. AWB squabble beats me.
 
Indeed, what an extraordinary digression.

When Kurt Hahn and Lawrence Holt, a partner in the Liverpool based Blue Funnel Line shipping company, and a ‘Gordonstoun Father’ set up the first Outward Bound school at Aberdovey in Wales in 1941, the impulse for this project was Holt’s concern at the high losses of merchant seamen whose ships had been torpedoed in Atlantic convoys. Holt was convinced ‘that due to faulty training many seamen …were dying unnecessarily. Unlike sail-trained old-timers …the younger men and youths had not acquired a sense of wind and weather, a reliance on their own resources, and a selfless bond with their fellows’ .

Back in those days much less was understood about the physiology of survival and it was thought that dying of exposure was a kind of moral failing, somewhat related the concept of 'guts' referred to above. I don't think the qualities required are much different now from 1930 but we might use different language and concepts to describe those qualities. You still need a sense of commitment and the right attitude to keep going when it's long since stopped being fun, and you just want to get to wherevr it is and get some rest....
 
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