Guns for USA liveaboard cruisers

To answer some of the questions.
We have dual European and USA passports so we can buy a gun legally.
While this forum is not a US forum it is the best international forum for this debate.
I agree that if there is already an intruder on board you will be unlikely to get your gun up and ready for use.

I had the opportunity yesterday to have a short discussion with a US cruiser about guns. He is a retired Viet Nam vet.
His family has numerous guns. He carries guns in his car, boat and has some in his house. His view is that it doesn't matter what country he is in he is armed and trained and will respond if threatened. He feels it would be naive of us to not be armed. He doesn't feel threatened in the US by the number of guns in the country.

The FBI says there are over 350 million guns in the country although a definitive number is not available as there is no mandatory registration. So there is a gun for every man, woman and child in the country.

My war vet friend says we should assume that when we are in an anchorage or marina, restaurant, bar or shopping mall that everyone is armed. He asked me if I feel threatened by that and I responded " yes". He said then get a gun and carry it and feel more confident. Here in lies the serious problem with the culture.

He also said he sleeps every night with a loaded gun beside him and admitted that he has only fired it in training and practice.
 
A few years ago, after yet another US school shooting incident (and a bottle of Bordeaux!), I sent a spoof email to the NRA. I pretended to be planning a visit from Europe to Disneyland with my wife and two young toddlers. Expressing concern about the apparent need to carry weapons in the US for self-defence, I asked how I could get hold of weapons on arrival at Miami airport. I wrote that I would like a semi-automatic assault rifle for myself, a couple of small, lightweight automatic pistols for my children, and a bazooka for my wife.

I received a very earnest reply, informing me that unfortunately as I would not be a US resident, I would not be able to buy any guns or even a bazooka. They continued, however, that my email did raise a "serious issue" about the inadequacy of gun laws in the USA which did not allow visiting foreigners to defend themselves, so they would be forwarding my email to some nutty Senator.
 
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As a visitor (armed, legally or not) what would be the etiquette with a gun? Is it the same as the UK?
Would it be advisable to carry it, broken over the forearm, so people could see they were safe from accidental discharge, or would that defeat the object?
In a marina situation how would you assess the backstop? A few plastic yachts aren't going to stop a determined bullet.

I think it's a logistical nightmare.
 
Sunshine sailor,

One of the better things about life in the USA is that YOU have the CHOICE as to wether to carry a gun or not.

I would take no notice whatsoever of the naysayers on here, most of who have so little knowledge of the topic that their comments are barely worth reading.

Talk to fellow American cruisers, then form your own opinion. If you decide to buy a gun then get some training and practice. Get local advice on gun type and ammunition, there is a huge choice not all easily understood by someone new to gun ownership.

Personally I would choose to carry, either a Colt Python in .357mag or a Glock 9mm, both of which i have owned in the past, ammunition Hydroshock made by Federal every time

Whatever you choose, good luck with your choice and be gratefull to have a choice.

mikej
 
mikej said:
Sunshine sailor,

One of the better things about life in the USA is that YOU have the CHOICE as to wether to carry a gun or not.

I would take no notice whatsoever of the naysayers on here, most of who have so little knowledge of the topic that their comments are barely worth reading.

Talk to fellow American cruisers, then form your own opinion. If you decide to buy a gun then get some training and practice. Get local advice on gun type and ammunition, there is a huge choice not all easily understood by someone new to gun ownership.

Personally I would choose to carry, either a Colt Python in .357mag or a Glock 9mm, both of which i have owned in the past, ammunition Hydroshock made by Federal every time

Whatever you choose, good luck with your choice and be gratefull to have a choice.

mikej
Click to expand...

Wasnt that the one Dirty Harry prefered
 
No that was the Smith & Wesson Model 29 in .44mag

A great gun but heavy, bulky and not easy to use. Somewhere I have a photo of my daughter, then aged about 14, using one on our local range! Very accurate and huge stopping power but the recoil nearly parted her hair!

I would only choose it if, I was in open / wooded country where there might be a problem with bears.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
My assumptions would be ...

If someone comes on my boat, with or without a gun, then they're going to do it when I am least prepared - most likely at night when I am asleep - if only to gain the tactical advantage and give the possibility of an in/out robbery without detection. A crazy coming down the pontoon firing off an assault weapon is very unlikely, as is a random crazy out to assault you - most likely motive is robbery.

Given this assumption, which I believe to be reasonable, I'd consider the following ....

Am I prepared to sleep every night with a loaded gun under my pillow? Is it primed to fire or just loaded? Safety catch on or off? If it's not under the pillow then how do you get to it in an emergency?
How much training do you need until you can get it from safe to ready to fire instinctively? Hand-guns are notoriously innacurate if used in a hurry, especially short nosed revolvers, how much training do you need to be assured a hit? How much bottle do you have to delay so you can aim and take the shot? If you do delay and your opponent just shoots off at random, what if he gets lucky?

When you wake up and find someone in the boat, in darkness, how long is it going to take you to assess wether it is your wife/crew returning from the toilet as opposed to a criminal? Do you draw the gun anyway before asking questions? What if it goes off?

When you assertain it is a stranger do you fire first? What happens to the bullets that miss? Do they hit nearby boats, or people? or even your own family? The fuel tanks? Gas bottles? Below the water line? What if it's the marina staff trying to secure your boat?

When you've got your gun pointed at them, and they've got theirs pointed at you, how rational do you think you are going to be? How rational is the other guy going to be? What might have been a simple robbery and insurance claim could now end in death for someone - who?

I've been involved in miltary exercises (not for real thank heavens) involving both defending and attacking in built up areas as part of training for Sandhurst a long time ago, what became apparent was that it is very much a lottery as to which individuals survive and which not. Guns and bullets don't know who the baddies are. Collateral damage and casualties are expected - tactics and planning, coupled with well trained people can certainly mean your side will succeed, but which individuals will get shot is still a lottery.

Try it out for yourself by going to play Paintball or Laserquest. Even the best man there will get hit multiple times - only with real guns, it's a funeral.

Personally I'd go for floodlights and a loud alarm with a panic button. Give the cornered rat a chance to flee and he'll probably take it without loss of anyones life.

Just my thoughts ....
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+1

Even James Bond gets shot by mistake!
 
mikej said:
Sunshine sailor,

One of the better things about life in the USA is that YOU have the CHOICE as to wether to carry a gun or not.

I would take no notice whatsoever of the naysayers on here, most of who have so little knowledge of the topic that their comments are barely worth reading.

Talk to fellow American cruisers, then form your own opinion. If you decide to buy a gun then get some training and practice. Get local advice on gun type and ammunition, there is a huge choice not all easily understood by someone new to gun ownership.

Personally I would choose to carry, either a Colt Python in .357mag or a Glock 9mm, both of which i have owned in the past, ammunition Hydroshock made by Federal every time

Whatever you choose, good luck with your choice and be gratefull to have a choice.

mikej
Click to expand...

40 or so years ago I used to carry a semi automatic pistol on occasions when I was working in southern Africa. There was an insurgent war on in Mocambique where I spent a fair amount of time and it was quite normal for people to have guns around the house, including rifles. I've also until recently had shotguns in the UK for many years. I like guns but, only under strict control.

Contrary to the popular film image, even when not under pressure/threat, hand guns are very inaccurate except at close range even at a stationary target so, regular practice is needed. For someone not in practice, they would just as likely hit innocent bystanders, particularly if the target were moving.

Under no circumstances would I carry a gun on a pleasure vessel, particularly a UK flagged one to which US law does not apply, regardless of the nationality (dual or otherwise) of the gun holder. The only class 1 firearm allowed on a UK registered vessel is a Very pistol, for which no license is actually required on board. In the case of a shooting involving a British vessel the embassy would be involved and proceedings taken.

If you think a gun is necessary for protection, then don't go there.
 
mikej said:
Sunshine sailor,

One of the better things about life in the USA is that YOU have the CHOICE as to wether to carry a gun or not.

mikej
Click to expand...

The fallacy in your argument is that "your choice" imposes the need for everybody else to also have to carry a gun (whether they wish to or not), to defend themselves against nutters. I prefer to live in a society where I don't have to strap on a gun every time I step out of my front door, in case my armed neighbour has gone postal.

Having said that, I don't give a toss about US gun laws. The Spams live in a democracy, and if they like to vote in laws that allow them to shoot each other regularly then that is their choice and it is none of my business until they start to export their nonsense. I only get angry that so much time on the BBC News gets covered by yet another US gun massacre when they have only themselves to blame. I do feel sorry for US children though, who don't get to vote on the issue but frequently get shot.

I'm just glad I don't have to go to the USA any more for work reasons. And yes, I have spent plenty of time around weapons - did 18 years in the British Army - which is enough to judge that by your waffle about "Colt Python in .357mag or a Glock 9mm, both of which i have owned in the past, ammunition Hydroshock made by Federal every time" you are a sad gun freak who has spent a great deal of time reading gun magazines.
 
Sunshine sailor

I think that you will now see why I said that you were asking in the wrong place, and why it would be better to talk to your American cruising friends.

Just the usual, "we don't like guns, so you should not have the coice of having one, and if you disagree, I feel that it is my right to insult you".

I expect little else when I post on some topics, especially from Ric who it seems is army surplus, so probably knows no better.

Good luck with your research and whatever choice YOU make.

Regards mikej
 
I have had the opportunity to speak with more American cruisers and that has been good, I think.
To answer a couple of points that have been raised.

Graham. One advantage of Delaware registration is that you can stay in the US without having to leave every twelve months to renew you foreign boat cruising permit. This is also cheaper than cruising permits. One advantage that we didn't know at the time is that we can legally carry a fire arm.

The criminals must know that foreigners and foreign boats are easy targets as they won't legally have a weapon to defend themselves. It would be better if the USA would give foreigners the same opportunity to defend themselves as they do US citizens. Would a criminal choose a foreign boat or a US boat to attack if he knew which one couldn't legally have a gun with which to defend himself?

Marsupial. We agree that to be unarmed right now in the USA is irrational and dangerous.

This forum combined with conversations with US cruisers has given us plenty of discussion on this issue. The forum does have some nonsense on it which we believe comes from those that are not threatened.

We are threatened here in the USA. The threat comes from the presence of so many guns in the hands of so many people. The threat is real, very real. To not understand that would be naive.

So what do we do? We want to see the US as much as we did other countries during the last dozen years. We do now have a plan. Next week we will look for and sign up for weapons training. This should help us decide if we want a weapon and which one would be best suited for our lifestyle.

We didn't consider all of this when we decided to cruise the US. It would be prudent for other foreigners coming to the US, whether on a boat or otherwise, to understand the threat before coming.
 
sunshinesailing said:
I have had the opportunity to speak with more American cruisers and that has been good, I think.
To answer a couple of points that have been raised.

Graham. One advantage of Delaware registration is that you can stay in the US without having to leave every twelve months to renew you foreign boat cruising permit. This is also cheaper than cruising permits. One advantage that we didn't know at the time is that we can legally carry a fire arm.

The criminals must know that foreigners and foreign boats are easy targets as they won't legally have a weapon to defend themselves. It would be better if the USA would give foreigners the same opportunity to defend themselves as they do US citizens. Would a criminal choose a foreign boat or a US boat to attack if he knew which one couldn't legally have a gun with which to defend himself?

Marsupial. We agree that to be unarmed right now in the USA is irrational and dangerous.

This forum combined with conversations with US cruisers has given us plenty of discussion on this issue. The forum does have some nonsense on it which we believe comes from those that are not threatened.

We are threatened here in the USA. The threat comes from the presence of so many guns in the hands of so many people. The threat is real, very real. To not understand that would be naive.

So what do we do? We want to see the US as much as we did other countries during the last dozen years. We do now have a plan. Next week we will look for and sign up for weapons training. This should help us decide if we want a weapon and which one would be best suited for our lifestyle.

We didn't consider all of this when we decided to cruise the US. It would be prudent for other foreigners coming to the US, whether on a boat or otherwise, to understand the threat before coming.
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Why stay there when you know / perceive the dangers.
 
I am pleased that you have come to a senseible conclusion despite all of the ill informed rubbish posted here.

There is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects within these forums but this topic is not one of them.

I do hope that you both enjoy the training and that it helps with your final decision. Do try a short barrelled pump action or semi auto shotgun, they are easy to use, very effective at close range and few wrongdoers would risk facing one.


Best wishes mikej
 
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sunshinesailing said:
The criminals must know that foreigners and foreign boats are easy targets as they won't legally have a weapon to defend themselves. It would be better if the USA would give foreigners the same opportunity to defend themselves as they do US citizens. Would a criminal choose a foreign boat or a US boat to attack if he knew which one couldn't legally have a gun with which to defend himself?
Click to expand...

But how do you know any of this for sure? Is armed robbery of boats such a major problem? The cruising with guns question can't be answered because the number of incidences is so small it's impossible to come to any kind of conclusion with so little data.
 
mikej said:
I am pleased that you have come to a senseible conclusion despite all of the ill informed rubbish posted here.

There is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects within these forums but this topic is not one of them.
Click to expand...

As I've already said, I do have some experience of guns and like them as a sport.

I have no argument with your choice of weapon "if" one is justified but the problem is, you come across like just another NRA member spouting off, you have done nothing to boost you case in the way of facts.

We all know there's a very real threat shoreside in some areas of many countries but, where are you statistics of boat people being singled out and attacked - how many, where and under what circumstances - in the USA?

Without accurate statistics, it's very hard to have a reasoned debate.
 
Peter Blake tried it with a gun
the trouble was other bloke was a better shot




Conachair said:
But how do you know any of this for sure? Is armed robbery of boats such a major problem? The cruising with guns question can't be answered because the number of incidences is so small it's impossible to come to any kind of conclusion with so little data.
Click to expand...
 
sunshinesailing said:
I have had the opportunity to speak with more American cruisers and that has been good, I think.
To answer a couple of points that have been raised.

Graham. One advantage of Delaware registration is that you can stay in the US without having to leave every twelve months to renew you foreign boat cruising permit. This is also cheaper than cruising permits. One advantage that we didn't know at the time is that we can legally carry a fire arm.

The criminals must know that foreigners and foreign boats are easy targets as they won't legally have a weapon to defend themselves. It would be better if the USA would give foreigners the same opportunity to defend themselves as they do US citizens. Would a criminal choose a foreign boat or a US boat to attack if he knew which one couldn't legally have a gun with which to defend himself?

Marsupial. We agree that to be unarmed right now in the USA is irrational and dangerous.

This forum combined with conversations with US cruisers has given us plenty of discussion on this issue. The forum does have some nonsense on it which we believe comes from those that are not threatened.

We are threatened here in the USA. The threat comes from the presence of so many guns in the hands of so many people. The threat is real, very real. To not understand that would be naive.

So what do we do? We want to see the US as much as we did other countries during the last dozen years. We do now have a plan. Next week we will look for and sign up for weapons training. This should help us decide if we want a weapon and which one would be best suited for our lifestyle.

We didn't consider all of this when we decided to cruise the US. It would be prudent for other foreigners coming to the US, whether on a boat or otherwise, to understand the threat before coming.
Click to expand...

If you really feel that threatened then I would advise you to leave the country, for your sake and your families.

I'm in daily contact with American cruisers and this is a subject that turns up about every 2 weeks, 90% of the cruisers I've met (and I am very good terms with them) DON'T CARRY WEAPONS ABOARD EVEN IN THE US, 95% of them do own guns though. The reason is it's too much hassle and they would feel they are a target as they have worthwhile to steal, 'cos they are carrying weapons.

Anyway cowboy, you've made your decision, hope you can live the consequences if you ever have to use it.

Oh yeah, get some training in so you don't shoot your Mrs or any innocent person by mistake!
 
For what it's worth, Peter Blake was ill-advised to carry out his course of action. His boat had already been boarded, and from acounts I have read he spotted that the intruders were armed and retired to retrieve his own weapon. This then instigated a shoot-out scenario.

"As one of the robbers held a gun to the head of a crewmember, Blake sprang from the cabin wielding a rifle. He shot one of the assailants in the hand before the rifle malfunctioned; he was then fatally shot in the back by assailant Ricardo Colares Tavares. The boarders injured two other crew members with knives, and the remaining seven were unhurt." (wickipedia)

In this given scenario, I would consider his actions extremely foolhardy.
 
Ben9000 said:
For what it's worth, Peter Blake was ill-advised to carry out his course of action. His boat had already been boarded, and from acounts I have read he spotted that the intruders were armed and retired to retrieve his own weapon. This then instigated a shoot-out scenario.

"As one of the robbers held a gun to the head of a crewmember, Blake sprang from the cabin wielding a rifle. He shot one of the assailants in the hand before the rifle malfunctioned; he was then fatally shot in the back by assailant Ricardo Colares Tavares. The boarders injured two other crew members with knives, and the remaining seven were unhurt." (wickipedia)

In this given scenario, I would consider his actions extremely foolhardy.
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As I said in an earlier post, having a gun will only serve to inflame an already volatile situation.

If you feel that threatened don't go/stay there.
 
NornaBiron said:
If you feel that threatened don't go/stay there.
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I can't endorse this sentiment enough. Why would go / cruise anywhere where your own paranoia about a place is going to degrade your experience?

I've never felt safer than when cruising and living aboard in the States. Never even locked the washboards in years. And as someone else said, that must be true of all the cruisers you meet there, both American and foreign, as the vast, vast majority would have nothing to do with carrying guns on board.

And those that do are probably gun nuts that would tell you they were essential even when visiting somewhere like Frinton.

(Now someone's going to tell us that Frinton on Sea is major drug hot-spot and has more gun related deaths of people who knew someone who once went on a boat than any other comparably sized, elderly retirement sub-urban seaside area in the whole of East Anglia.)
 
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