Greek share

[Theshipscat]

Hi has anyone any experience in Greek yacht shares? £5000 seems to buy a decent boat with low yearly fees. I'm thinking motor sailor for space and comfort although I do like sailing rather than motoring?
Cheers G

 

[Tranona]

Nothing "special" about it being Greek. Success of shared yachts depends entirely on the members of the syndicate. There is good information on the RYA site about the pros and cons of different types of arrangements to guide you, but nothing is set in stone.

£5k won't buy you much - either a small share (and therefore low usage) in a substantial boat, or a smaller share in an older less valuable boat. One problem with older boats is maintenance at a distance when you maybe have 5 owners and the budget is not big enough to cover professional maintenance.

In practical terms you are unlikely to find many motor sailer types for sale, either shares or whole boats because they are not popular types for the environment. Most boats are AWBs or English boats that have made the trip out here. There are always shares in older boats available because members want out (retirement, cost, lost ineterest or whatever) but you are buying into an established group so you need to be sure that you can work with the majority.

Many syndicates are created from scratch so that the members come with a common interest. They tend to buy newish (possibly ex charter if not new) with a budget that ensures the boat can be professionally maintained and available to members every time they want it.

It is a fallacy to think that it is "cheap" to run a boat in Greece. Overall costs are very little different from UK - mooring arguably cheaper, maintenance and parts more expensive, insurance higher. Upside of course is that you get potentially much higher usage which means that syndicate members potentially get more sailing time for their money.

 

[Retired in Crete]

It is a fallacy to think that it is "cheap" to run a boat in Greece. Overall costs are very little different from UK - mooring arguably cheaper, maintenance and parts more expensive, insurance higher. .

I would dispute these comment.

Mooring is not arguably cheaper. It is definately cheaper! I pay half of what I used to pay in the UK plus overnight stops in local harbours (not marinas) are rarely charged for.

Professional maintenance is cheaper in Greece because the labour charges are far lower. Typically 20-25 Euros per hour (16 - 20 pounds).

My insurance, for the whole of the med, is less than I paid in the UK even though I stayed with the same company.

John

 

[Tranona]

I would dispute these comment.

Mooring is not arguably cheaper. It is definately cheaper! I pay half of what I used to pay in the UK plus overnight stops in local harbours (not marinas) are rarely charged for.

Professional maintenance is cheaper in Greece because the labour charges are far lower. Typically 20-25 Euros per hour (16 - 20 pounds).

My insurance, for the whole of the med, is less than I paid in the UK even though I stayed with the same company.

John

It really depends on where you go and the level of service you expect. If you are an individual living on your boat, doing your own maintenance, or supervising a tradesman, and not having a marina berth but paying as you go along - yes it is potentially cheaper, but no cheaper than having a swinging mooring in one of the less popular parts of the UK etc. Parts are typically 30-50% higher cost in Greece than in UK and more are needed because the boat gets more use.

However, if you have a syndicate owned boat where the 4 or 5 members want the boat ready to go when they arrive on their holidays and in use 20+ weeks a year then the opportunities for savings that an individual liveaboard can make are limited.

Maintenance costs are higher just because the boat gets five times the use than in the UK - 4-500 engine hours compared with typical 100 and so on. And a syndicated yacht will inevitably cost more to insure because of the higher level of usage with more than one skipper.

So, comparing like with like, my observation stands (and was based on over 10 years experience of keeping a high usage boat there).

 

[daveyw]

We have a syndicate in a HR352. We had it for 17 years. Over this time 1/4 share prices have increased from £15k to about £19k. The increase has mainly been due to "improvements" to the boat, new teak decks, new engine etc. Each 1/4 share pays £1000/year(£500 in the spring and £500 in the Autunm). This £4000 covers all routine expenditure, Insurance, winter maintenance, Guardinage. The only insurance claim we've had is a stolen dinghy. In the event of a mishap the individual generally gets it fixed unless it was wear and tear then to syndicate funds pay for it. The success of the syndicate very much depends on the individuals. A marina berth cost about E40/day on a day by day basis. An annual fee is about E4000 for a 35' boat. The advantage of a syndicate is the boat is fully used and therefore is not left in an expensive marina! The disadvantage is more wear and tear!

 

[Retired in Crete]

I really don't know where to start but here goes

It really depends on where you go and the level of service you expect. If you are an individual living on your boat, doing your own maintenance, or supervising a tradesman, and not having a marina berth but paying as you go along - yes it is potentially cheaper, but no cheaper than having a swinging mooring in one of the less popular parts of the UK etc.

I currently pay just over 1,000 Euros per year (800 GBP) to moor my 28ft boat in Agios Nikolaos marina. It has toilets, showers, washing machines and dryers and individual electricity & water to every boat. When you go out you give a call on the radio and a man comes to take your lines. Ditto when you return, and he will throw you your lines and assist you. Seven years ago (when I left the UK) I was paying 1,300 GBP to keep a Jag 25 in Tollesbury marina.

Parts are typically 30-50% higher cost in Greece than in UK and more are needed because the boat gets more use.

With the internet I source any parts from the world market, not from rip-off Britain! I recently purchased a British made anchor windlass from the USA. It was over 100 GBP cheaper from the states than I could buy it in the UK and the carriage charge was less! I also recently posted that I had the UV strip on my genoa replaced in Athens for 80 Euros!

If more parts are needed because the boat gets more use in a syndicate you can divide the cost between the members so the cost per person stays the same.

However, if you have a syndicate owned boat where the 4 or 5 members want the boat ready to go when they arrive on their holidays and in use 20+ weeks a year then the opportunities for savings that an individual liveaboard can make are limited.

Why do you compare costs with a liveaboard?
Eh? 20 weeks a year useage? My boat gets used for 48 weeks a year!

Maintenance costs are higher just because the boat gets five times the use than in the UK - 4-500 engine hours compared with typical 100 and so on. And a syndicated yacht will inevitably cost more to insure because of the higher level of usage with more than one skipper.

So the total costs are higher because the boat gets used more than one in the UK. You forget again that the costs are divided by the number of members so the cost per person is the same as a UK based boat used by the owner for the same amount of time.

So, comparing like with like, ie the cost per person, my observation stands.

One thing I cannot understand, and maybe you can help. Why do people restrict their syndicate sailing and holiday charters to the summer months? During the past week it has been over 40C here which I find is too hot to sleep on board so I am limited to day sailing. I am looking forward to Oct/Nov/Dec when it will only be in the low 20's C and no tourists!

John

John

 

[Tranona]

You can construct any kind of scenario you like to fit your view - but the way you go about your boating is I suggest very different from a typical syndicate owning a boat for short term holiday use.

4 or 5 owners living 1000 miles away from the boat, none really interested in minimising costs by doing any work themselves, just wanting to step off the plane onto a boat ready to go in a popular tourist place and not having to bother about fixing it before they go off or spending two days at the end of their holiday getting it ready for the next syndicate member.

You are living in your own world if you think that 4 private owners working and earning a living can use their boat year round. The majority of boats are not used between November and May. Working people do not have enough holiday, don't want to spend £1000 flying out (assuming they can get flights) with unreliable weather.

So get real and look at from the point of view of the person who is interested in a syndicate to get economical holidays, not from the point of view of somebody who lives there and keeps his own little boat at minimum cost (not disparaging they way you go about it - just not the same).

Of course if all 4 or 5 members of the syndicate are happy with a small old boat run on a shoestring and are prepared to deal with the constraints that imposes, thats fine - I know there are some, I've met them, but I would suggest it is not the dominant way of going about it.

There are many ways of arranging access to a boat for holiday use in the sun, and being a member of syndicate is only one way. There is always a trade off between the cost and the benefits of the different mechanisms and individuals can choose the combination that suits them. In my case I bought a charter boat with agreed usage and then used the boat exclusively when I had more time. A syndicate was a serious alternative, but I was not prepared to accept the constraints attached to that method, particularly the difficulty of finding a buyer for the share if I wanted out. I would, however have gone into shared ownership if I had found a partner that shared my tastes in all respects. Syndicates are in that grey area between sole ownership and professionally managed shared ownership schemes such as the one I bought and stand or fall on the strength of the members.

 

[Retired in Crete]

You can construct any kind of scenario you like to fit your view - but the way you go about your boating is I suggest very different from a typical syndicate owning a boat for short term holiday use.

I have created no scenarios. I simply disputed your statement in your first post "It is a fallacy to think that it is "cheap" to run a boat in Greece. Overall costs are very little different from UK - mooring arguably cheaper, maintenance and parts more expensive, insurance higher."

I have justified my comments with examples of prices, could you do the same please?

Name me a single marina in the south of England, with the facilities that I have here, where I could moor a 28ft boat for 800 GBP per year?

Quote UK labour charges for maintenance work and demonstrate how prices for parts in "rip off Britain" are lower.

Show how insurance for one boat with 4-5 owners is 4-5 times the cost of only a single owner. (ie the cost per person is higher)

John

 

[nimbusgb]

Greek ownership ( not necessarily shares )

Arguably cheaper ...

I have just had my 11.5m boat hauled for €200 and stored ashore for a 6 week break for €25 per WEEK! ( Excellent yard, steel cradles, good reputation, my usual storage facility for the past 5 years )

Fully comp Insurance for 2 owners - £385 for the year

Actual fixed overheads in Greece ARE lower than UK but as has been said unless you are in the right kind of syndicate then it's not as simple as that.

Boats need continuous maintenance, and unless your syndicate has a workaholic like me with time on their hands you must be prepared to pay out for 'professional' maintenance.

I consider my boat to be well sorted after 4 years of restoration work but this last two week trip I have replaced 2 toilet pumps, fixed a broken clew shackle, installed a radar pole, sorted out a minor electrical problem, adjusted the gearbox cable, rigged new burgee/flag halyards, fitted a new transom rubber strip and done battle with a dinghy that's falling apart. It all takes time and if you are a working grunt on 2 or 3 weeks holiday it eats into it.

The reputation of SOME expat boat labour is poor. Guys who are good for a couple of years suddenly try to increase cash flow by overcharging for work not done or hours not worked. This last trip I was shown evidence of what amounted to fraud by an operator. Without you there to check on things it can all get away from you very quickly.

Greek businesses operate on the manana/inshallah time clock and a cut-of-my-nose-to-spite-my-face business principle. So you get to your boat find a critical part is U.S. and discover you can't get it fixed for 3 weeks. ( Although it may be promised for Wednesday ) and if you don't like the price of something it's a case of well then foxtrot oscar next door.

The cost of travel can be expensive and if you are travelling in school holidays you are at the mercy of the carriers ( and they know it )

Winterising / dewinterising takes time, even a haul out between sailing sessions takes a day or two ( I drop, flake and bag sails, take off the spray canopy, bleach the fridge, rinse everything in fresh water including engine cooling system, clean bilge, packup / clean up / launder the sheets air the cushions and matresses, pack up the dinghy and store the outboard, put on a boat cover, seal the boom ends and through hulls against wasps and birds ) doing it all ashore when it's 40 degrees in the shade and you are knackered from 2 or 3 weeks sailing can be 'interesting'. You can pay someone to do it for you.

You need to plan stuff and be an organiser ( equipment service over winter planned ahead, new equipment/toys/bits shipping from UK etc )

You acquire 2 sets of tools - one on the boat and one at home.

You don't mind 'working holidays'

Unless you can tick the above boxes .......... charter someone else's boat, given the option again I would!

 

[Tranona]

I have justified my comments with examples of prices, could you do the same please?

Name me a single marina in the south of England, with the facilities that I have here, where I could moor a 28ft boat for 800 GBP per year?



Show how insurance for one boat with 4-5 owners is 4-5 times the cost of only a single owner. (ie the cost per person is higher)

John

Yes. My marina berth in one of the major centres on the south coast is just over £1000 for a 37 footer. A 28 would be about £700. This is year round and includes harbour dues. My last years bill in Gouvia Marina in 2009 for the same boat was nearly £3500 including the two lifts for storage.

In a sense this is irrelevant. You can only look at the expected costs of the project you are considering, and my suggestion is that overall costs of running a syndicate/time share/charter boat in Greece is not dissimilar from doing the same thing in the UK - and that observation is based on having done a similar thing and costed various different alternatives.

And I am not disputing that you can run your boat cheaply, just as I have also run a similar size boat in the UK cheaply for over 30 years.

Nowhere have I said anything about "per person" costs. Of course if you divide the overall costs among a syndicate of 4 the per person cost is lower - that is the whole idea of syndicates.

You can always find ways of reducing costs as an individual by doing your own trade off of where you keep your boat, the amount of time and effort you put into "shopping around" etc. All I am saying is that not everybody has these kinds of opportunities and a remotely run syndicate that wants a boat available on demand 20 weeks+ a year will incur costs - as daveyw explains above. Capital costs of nearly £80k and annual costs of £4k plus any major upgrades.

This is not untypical. When I considered selling shares in my boat with a capital value of £60k, ie £15k a share the annual budget, not with a full time berth, of £5k shared equally. That would have resulted in a small surplus each year for a sinking fund for upgrades and unexpected breakages.

 

[neoanderson004]

There are many disputes about the question. I suggest that first check all the things about the yacht and check the age and insurance of that boat. If you find all correct and you are satisfied with the things then there is no problem. But first, be sure that all things are correct.