Greece versus Turkey

catmandoo

catmandoo

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Thinking of moving east next year . What advantages are there in having a boat based in Turkey versus Greece nowadays particularly in view of Credit crunch

Saving on travel to and from Uk ?
Cost of yards?
Ability to sell boats quicker ? etc etc
servicing
Less congestion during summer months ?
ease of access to sites from Uk etc etc ?
 
I love Greece, the Greek Isles and Turkey. However, in my humble uneducated opinion, Turkey wins on all the points you raise, though Lady Jessie and others will no doubt be along shortly to give more thorough answers.

As for the credit crunch......we all have to make sacrifices........








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Great picture, Eyeore!

To respond to the op; if you with 'based' means "where should I have a marina contract?", then the answer is clearly Turkey. The marinas there are state-of-the-art and plentiful, while Greece just have a handful imho poorly run marinas that also normally happen to be full of local boats. Turkey will also provide boat services that are some of the best in the world, services in Greece are very limited.

If you by 'based' mean which country is the best cruising ground; then the answer is both. They are different, but both offer some of the best sailing areas in the world.

My recommendation is not very unique, this is what most liveaboards in this area do: spend the winter in Turkey and then spend the sailing season sailing around the Greek Aegean islands and Turkey's south west coast. Bliss for sailors. You can have it both ways. I don't think the 'credit crunch' have changed any of the cruising variables in this area.
 
Maybe not very relevant to the core of the OP, but our (or Popeye's) main grouse about Turkey is the limited availabilty of non-halal products - ie ham, bacon, salami, wine.If you're long term based over there, I'm sure you can fix the logistics to cover all that, but if you require a "full English" every morning, ingredients easier to find in Greece
 
Got back from Turkey last Thursday, dont recal ANY problems sourcing "the full english" but the home grown breakfast is far healthier!
 
While Greece has relatively few marinas for its coastline and number of yachts, the corollary is that it has large numbers of villages and small towns which make very low or no charges for using their quays. It's a small boat country; that's how islanders get around. Wintering the boat ashore at very low cost is an option if you're not living aboard, and if living aboard, there are many safe zero cost options.

For tthose who need state of the art marinas, in Greece you're limited to Levkas, Kos and Olympic Marina (very convenient for Athens airport) all of which offer good services, although labour costs for services are higher than those in Turkey. Other marinas are under development, and there's a good range of slightly worn marinas, popular with live aboards and good value for money (Gouvia, Kalamata, Patras) which aren't full of locals.

Boat paperwork is a bore in Greece, especially for non-EU boats. But EU passport holders have complete freedom to roam with no time limits. Turkey has much less intrusive paperwork for yachts, but intrusive limits on personal visas.

Importing spares to Turkey (outside the EU) is also a pain, and at times expensive, whereas within the EU, there's no cost or paperwork except that of transport.

Athens is the only sound year round Greek hub for flights to UK, which are good value when bought well ahead. I don't know the all the best year round hubs in Turkey - Ladyjessie can supply those. Both countries have good bus services to reach airports, though that may involve a five hour journey time!
 
All I want is a place to leave the boat over the winter that is accessible during the winter months for maintenance visits with power available and walking access to local stores and suppliers etc .

When I was in the Steno boatyard between Nidri and Vlihi the walk in the dark to both towns was OK apart from getting wet feet in the rain and having to carry a torch to avoid being run over by the locals . The presence of two grave yards on the way both ancient and modern might have been intimidating to others especially when thinking on the words of the song I might be whistling on the way




"Black Oh, Are You Sleeping Maggie

Mirk and rainy is the nicht
There's no a star in a' the carry
Lightening gleams across the sky
And winds they blaw wi winter fury

O are you sleeping Maggie
O are you sleeping Maggie
Let me in , for loud the linn
Is roaring o'er the warlocks craigie

Fearfu' flows the boortree bank
The rifted wood roars wild and dreary
Loud the iron yett does clank
And cry of howlets mak me eerie

Aboon my breath I daurna speak
For fear I'll rouse your wakeful daddie
Cauld's the blast upon my check
O rise, O rise, my bonnie lassie

She's op'ed the door, she's let him in
He's cruist aside his dreeping plaidie
Ye can blow ye worst, ye winds and rain
Since Maggie noo I'm in aside thee

O noo that you're wakin, Maggie
O noo that you're wakin, Maggie
What care I for howlets cry
For roaring linn or warlock's craigie.

Don't want a Zea or a Gouvia marina with all mod cons although that would be nice if the costs fit my Scottish presbyterian , miserly , penny pinching upbringing . Prefer to rough it and blend in with the locals
 
Turkey is FULL! Many, if not most marinas now have substantial waiting lists, so do some recce first. Turkey is also suffering from heavy inflation, and rampant greed is rife in suppliers of services, food, trasnsport etc. It is now both crowded and far fom the cheap place it was just 3 years ago, and both are getting rapidly worse.

Still better value than most, but is catching up fast.
 
I have to agree with you. Just returned to Greece after two seasons in Turkey ( Fethiye). IMHO the sailing in Greece is far more varied with loads more small harbours ( mostly free) to use.I do a agree with those who mention Turkish Marinas -- they are good but very FULL now and watch their prices next year!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Importing spares to Turkey (outside the EU) is also a pain, and at times expensive, whereas within the EU, there's no cost or paperwork except that of transport.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think this is really an issue anymore. I have found that the Turkish chandleries are usually better stocked than what you find in Greece. Secondly, if a part cannot be found; it can certainly be manufactured in one of the machine shops you will find in every Turkish town. I have had a lot of spare parts manufactured for me and I am sure the quality is superior to the 'original' part.

Regarding airline links; this is a very difficult question to address as all airline schedules seems to be up in the air now (pardon the pun). EasyJet had originally announced that they would operate a daily service to Dalaman throughout the year. They have now decided to cancel that between November 1st and March 1st. Same story with most other airlines; they are cutting back all over Europe. The only reliable service is still the domestic flights of Turkish Airlines which operates a daily service from Bodrum, Dalaman (harbours: Marmaris, Gocek and Fethiye) and Antalya to Istanbul throughout the year. These are very cheap flights and from Istanbul you can pick up many good bargains to western Europe.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Turkey is FULL! Many, if not most marinas now have substantial waiting lists

[/ QUOTE ]That is not correct. Although Turkey is certainly getting more crowded (as everywhere else in the Med), the list of marinas' with spaces are still longer than the ones that are full. My information (which is not scientific) indicates that these marinas still have many spaces for this winter: Kusadasi, Port Bodrum Yalikavak, D-Marin Turgutreis, Netsel Marmaris, Port Gocek (expensive!!!!) and Fethiye marina. I have no recent information on the situation in Finike or Kemer.
 
I will be in Port Bodrum Yalikavak at the end of this month and will speak to them.
Last year I got the feeling that there is an end of season bottle neck, when all the charter boats that operate out of there come home to roost. Many of these get lifted for the winter maintenance and stay on the hard until next season, hence freeing up space on the pontoons. Just a couole of weeks bottle neck as they lift them out. There is also a cat charter company that lifts out in the winter freeing up some space.
 
OK, perhaps I was not specific enough with my reply. Permanent annual contracts are hard to come by, winter deals "in the water" are probably a different matter. Surprised to hear that some of those mentioned by Lady J have no waiting list, not as I was told least week, but maybe again this is winter only?

I do, however agree with Lady J that Turkish chandleries are amazingly well stocked and that facilities for local manufacture or repair of spare parts is beyond the imagination of W European yotties. But try buying even lousy quality rope or chain. Forget it. Can't be done! Turkish chain and rope is CRAP. But then in Greece you can at least get European rope which solves half the problem.

Kos marina has good chandleries.

The importation of spares is easily achieved by sending them by DHL to a friend, marina or yacht agent's address by prior arrangement in the Islands and then sailing over there to collect. Re-engining a boat in Turkey this way is easy...you might save VAT by sending it to Turkey "ship's spares in transit" or whatever the formula is, but the bureaucracy just isn't worth it.

Finally, airlines.

I haven't been able to confirm Easy's winter schedule beyond what the timetable says, but sadly it looks like a stoppage thru the winter months. Ideas of flying via Istanbul are all very well if internal fares are cheap, but EJ flies to Sabieh Gocen airport which is the opposite end of Istanbul from Ataturk Apt where the Turkish connections to Dalaman operate from. This is a horrible transit - you don't want to know. Sadly not very practical.

Some day maybe someone will be as sensible as GB Airways and see the year round potential of Dalaman, but that ain't gonna ba for a while yet, I fear.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised to hear that some of those mentioned by Lady J have no waiting list, not as I was told least week, but maybe again this is winter only?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, that is correct. I responded to this from a liveaboard perspective when you only need a winter space. Sorry, but I do not really know the 'full-year contract' market. Very few liveaboards in this area would be looking for that.

Having said all that; it should not really change the response. Winter is high season for these marinas. If they have space in the winter; they will most probably have space in the summer. So getting a yearly contract should be easy with a marina that has winter space. Now, I am just using logic and have not actually tried this thesis in real time. But you should!
 
Don't make it a V type choice - treat the whole region as one and move as it suits.
With sometimes less than 5 miles twix the two countries sourcing bacon or finding good chandlery with the right rope, or indeed an airport with the right winter service, is not an issue if you act like an ex pat and swing back and forth.
IMHO some parts of Turkey beat all the others....but that was a subjective view simply based on best weather, weekly close by lower cost flights, and a nice facility.
Sort out your own priorities, and the answer will be easy to compute.
Cheers
JOHN
 
[ QUOTE ]
...act like an ex pat and swing back and forth...

What about signing in/out. Surely each time you return to Turkey you'll need to buy a new visa and cruising permit?

[/ QUOTE ]This is a response to both Swagman and BobnLesley: Yes, you are correct: you can swing back between the two countries. That is the beauty of this area. And yes: if you are just a little bit liberal with the entry regulations: most cruisers here find that they can sail with both a Greek Transit Log and a Turkish one open at the same time. BobnLesley are correct that this is not legal and not something I would openly endorse. It just seems to be what most cruisers do. Again, I did not tell you to do that.
 
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