GREECE - the fall-out for Liveaboards

Being a big fan of Greece and the Greek people I have kept a weather eye on this thread. Much looking into crystal balls going on and much moaning about certain aspects of the Greek civilisation.

I can sympathise with those living there, watching their living costs going up and up, but it is happening everywhere. In the middle of the recession, Ford put their prices up in the UK by well over 10% because of the weak pound, A base model fiesta is the same price now as a top of the range titanium model was in 2007. Other imported goods are also going up like mad.

At work, Yamaha UK are charging me about 30 - 40% more for each part, over 2008 prices.

We are all in the mire together, maybe the Greeks are in it a bit more than others, but the country is delightful, the people charming; and I for one am happy to do my bit to help them out by not turning my back on them in their hour of need.

So i'm bound for Skiathos in May, Kos in July and Corfu in September. I enjoyed their hospitality when times were good, I would be a fair weather friend if I ignored their plight now.

Life is for living and I never saw a coffin with a strongbox or wallet holder fitted.
 
As someone who has enjoyed a couple of sailing trips in Greece, I find a comparison with another country in the PIIGS ( no disrespect). Portugal decided to close up on VAT avoidance. So, if on the road, ANY object in the vehicle that was 'considered' goods, needed a sales reciept with the value, vat, and the time of sale, destination and expected time of delivery. If not new, then a 'transport note' giving the value and delivery place and time. Hefty fines for non complience. I fell foul of this. Friend stored a large quantity of goods in my (large) workshop. " Can you drop off a few samples as I have a buyer" " No prob" Put the box in the back of my R4 (fer god's sake!) and tootled off. Couple of fiscals pulled me over (not uncommon) and questioned the contents of the box. No note, so lost the goods and the car ( for 12 baseball hats) Fine was equal to buying back the car, with 25% off for quick payment.
Point of this story is that tax avoidance is normal in the PIIGS, certainly in Spain,Portugal, Italy and Greece. (I have no knowledge of Ireland). And it is certainly the salaried who pay tax, not the big business types. The clampdown on offshores in Portugal a few years ago was not aimed at foreigners, despite the press coverage. It was about the local land deals (large) that avoided tax.

Rant, not really. Just comment.
A
 
I have my own opinion of how I think things will go, at the moment there is no competition (on the islands) for any type of goods, it remains a Cartel.
An example, the price of a tin of Tuna in Lidl out here is 1.70 europs, in the uk the same is around 85p, half the price. The normal working Greek on PAYE is not on a big wage, they simply cannot afford to pay these prices. We have the Chinese emporium type shops selling clothing, they can undercut the greek run shops simply because they are allowed to import their goods cheaply as a China/Greek shipping deal is in force. The local shopkeepers are totaly against the Chinese shops, they complain that it is unfair competition.
I forsee the closing of a lot of clothing, shoes and food stores, the sort of competition that happened in the uk will slowly develop here and, prices will begin to fall, it will be a survival of the fittest who will ride out this reccesion. You have to remember that Greece is around 6/12 months Behind the uk reccesion and are only really feeling the pinch now. Prices will fall slowly, plus the rents on the shops and bars will also have to fall as tennants refuse to renew their rental contracts, it is starting to happen now.
 
I have just heard VAT has gone to 21%. in Greece.
I was worried about the tax on boats situation, but have decided to come to Corfu anyway, you only live once and its got to be cheaper (it is) than Barcelona! and the western meddy. The cruising is in a different world. No more expensive very, very crowded Ballearics for this boat. No matter how busy it gets in the summer, there is always some uncrowded areas. See you all there.
 
Tax evasion (a DNA thing?)

Just curious.

You are in a chandler's in the UK and you find something you like.
You ask for the price and the man tells you:

- 100 if you need a receipt, 75 if you don't.

What would you (really) do?

(would a poll make sense? I 'm afraid there are many possible answers)
 
Glyka said:
Just curious.

You are in a chandler's in the UK and you find something you like.
You ask for the price and the man tells you:

- 100 if you need a receipt, 75 if you don't.

What would you (really) do?

(would a poll make sense? I 'm afraid there are many possible answers)
Click to expand...

No receipt=no proof of purchase=difficult warranty situation?

Would depend on item(boathook=no problem. Electronics?Maybe not)

You will note I take no moral stance---I've got no morals.
 
Glyka said:
Just curious.

You are in a chandler's in the UK and you find something you like.
You ask for the price and the man tells you:

- 100 if you need a receipt, 75 if you don't.

What would you (really) do?

(would a poll make sense? I 'm afraid there are many possible answers)
Click to expand...
It wouldnt happen, dealers pay VAT on the difference between what goods cost you and what you sell em for. The Reveners have a good idea what the amounts are based on turnover. So you buy something in, you claim the VAT back (when you fill the form in you tell them gross payments made for vatable stuff) If you sell goods without charging VAT then the money is going in your pocket, so straight away the equations/calculations proportions go wrong and bingo they get you. If how ever the dealer was to buy in with pound notes then he could sell without charging VAT and lessen the price, unfortunately that would then, if done on a regular basis, cock up the turn over figures which are compared with like similar businesses.
The only other way is to do "labour" jobs so no incoming goods to be checked up on BUT again the turnover figures go out of sync.
Stu
 
Ludd said:
No receipt=no proof of purchase=difficult warranty situation?

Would depend on item(boathook=no problem. Electronics?Maybe not)

You will note I take no moral stance---I've got no morals.
Click to expand...

I have reserved for you a load of boathooks at 75 GBP each.
PM me for shipping details.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
Greece will bounce back again as always. Many forget that Greece, together with other Med countries, supported euro-land for a number of years with annual growth of above 8%.... etc.......

Amazing how quick and eager people are to criticise the nation that has kept the south east gates of Europe safe and good in every way for many many years.;)
Click to expand...

Err?

I was reading this thread and beginning to wonder how people get sucked into arguing about things non related to 'livaboard' and then I read this last point and found my self reaching for the keyboard............

I think a number of Greek generals / dictators quoted this same 'safe and good' when they deposed elected Greek governments, and thinking further - probably the same thing was said when they supported the terrorist movement to depose the Cypriot government - which then led to Turkish troops having to land and as we all know, leading to the division of that country........

Just because we all think of Greece as the cradle of democracy does not mean that dream actually always existed. It is a lovely place to sail around now - but let us not forget the truth about the deaths / torture / injustice that was visited upon people - even Greek people - during this 'safe and good' exercise.

Oh bummer. Been sucked in eh...........

JOHN
 
Swagman said:
Err?

I was reading this thread and beginning to wonder how people get sucked into arguing about things non related to 'livaboard' and then I read this last point and found my self reaching for the keyboard............

I think a number of Greek generals / dictators quoted this same 'safe and good' when they deposed elected Greek governments, and thinking further - probably the same thing was said when they supported the terrorist movement to depose the Cypriot government - which then led to Turkish troops having to land and as we all know, leading to the division of that country........

Just because we all think of Greece as the cradle of democracy does not mean that dream actually always existed. It is a lovely place to sail around now - but let us not forget the truth about the deaths / torture / injustice that was visited upon people - even Greek people - during this 'safe and good' exercise.

Oh bummer. Been sucked in eh...........

JOHN
Click to expand...

Nail and head spring to mind -
 
i was in Greece last summer,i went to Santorini.It had been about 10 years since i had been to greece.I was stunned by the prices,one bar tried to charge me 16 euros for a pint,i told him to pour it back into the barrel,mars bars were one euro,baked beans one euro,the prices were double what you paid in the UK,beautifull place but expensive.i did very much like the grecian attitude to a lot of things and i really like the people.The bars were empty at night,i got the impression that they were pricing themselves out of the tourist market.
 
Greece has been bailed out by the IMF using EU and UK money, 30 billion Euros in the first year. Interest rate is 5%. IMO since the UK is not in Euroland we shouldn't be involved however since the money is guaranteed by the IMF we are ivolved to the tune of UKP 650 million.
 
KellysEye said:
Greece has been bailed out by the IMF using EU and UK money, 30 billion Euros in the first year. Interest rate is 5%. IMO since the UK is not in Euroland we shouldn't be involved however since the money is guaranteed by the IMF we are ivolved to the tune of UKP 650 million.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are calling for. Presumably if the UK is a member of the IMF (and stands to benefit if needs be) we have to stump up when asked. And ditto Euroland countries. If they are members of the IMF they can borrow from it under the usual rules. Are you suggesting that Euroland countries should leave the IMF? If so, I disagree. I'd rather be a member of an IMF including Euroland than if they all left despite the Euros problems. The IMF would look a lot weaker, and less coherent, without most European countries in it.
 
skipper_stu said:
It wouldnt happen, dealers pay VAT on the difference between what goods cost you and what you sell em for. The Reveners have a good idea what the amounts are based on turnover. So you buy something in, you claim the VAT back (when you fill the form in you tell them gross payments made for vatable stuff) If you sell goods without charging VAT then the money is going in your pocket, so straight away the equations/calculations proportions go wrong and bingo they get you.
Click to expand...

One of the nice things about living here is that relationships are more important than just money.

This is roughly how I think it might work (no offence intended to anyone):

Suppose I own a chandlery business. Mr Foreignboatowner comes into my shop to buy something priced at 120 euro. He is a nice man so I say to him that I will let him have the item for 99 euro if he doesn't want a receipt. He is very pleased.

That same week another four nice small boat owners buy items at a similar price so I do the same for them. I now have five happy customers who will come back to me and tell their friends they will get a bargain at my store.

I also have 600 euro that has not gone through my cash machine. I cannot declare that much less in my turnover this week as it would be suspicious but luckily there is a good answer.

My cousin's brother-in-law Dimitris Bigcharterbusinessowner has an account with me. He comes into my shop to pay his bill. Of course he must have an official invoice. His bill comes to 1200 euro but I tell him to give me 1200 euro and I will write a bill for him for 1500 euro.

Dimitri is happy as he now has a VAT invoice for 300 euro more than he has paid so he can reclaim an additional 50 euro or so of VAT.

I am happy as I have 6 pleased customers and I have done a favour for Dimitris. I am also happy as I will pay VAT on 300 euro instead of 600 euro.

Maybe you think the VAT collectors will not be happy? But they compare my profit to those of other chandlery businesses in Greece and we are all at a similar level so they are happy too.

It is a win-win-win-win situation and everyone is happy.

And of course this does not take into account Mr Toomuchillegalmoney whose skipper shops here sometimes for things for his boss's luxury yacht or Mr Veryarrogantforeigner. If I need to bump up my turnover at times there are ways of fixing it using them too but I will not necessarily do them a favour, especially the rich Greek, as it is his fault the country is in the mess it is in.

If he paid his taxes none of us would need to scrimp and save 10 euro here and there. :)

Of course this is all speculation and it may not work like this at all ...
 
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Excellent, thank you. That is the nicest, most easily understood explanation of "Cooking the Books" I have ever read. I hope they get their problems sorted out though, 'cos it would be a right pain having to keep changing courtesy ensigns for every island..:D :D
 
>Not sure what you are calling for. Presumably if the UK is a member of the IMF (and stands to benefit if needs be) we have to stump up when asked. And ditto Euroland countries. If they are members of the IMF they can borrow from it under the usual rules. Are you suggesting that Euroland countries should leave the IMF? If so, I disagree. I'd rather be a member of an IMF including Euroland than if they all left despite the Euros problems. The IMF would look a lot weaker, and less coherent, without most European countries in it.

I do think we should be members of the IMF and doutbtless we will have to call them in soon if Labour stays in power.

What bugs me is that we are paying for a decision to refinance Greece made by Germany and partly France. The unelected EU didn't enforce their monetary rules and Germany/France ignored it just as they ignore us. Bear in mind also that the Greeks have a lot of short term debt due to be called soon. Thus I doubt 30 billion Euros will last a year and Euroland and us will be in for far more.

If the Euro and Eurozone collapsed it would be fine by me but with our help it won't collaspe in the short term. Pretty soon we will also have to pay for Portugal, Spain and Ireland.
 
I think you're getting the IMF & the European Central Bank mixed up a bit.
Deficits in Spain & Portugal & Ireland will be paid for by their respective tax payers, (and their offsprings offspring by the looks of it), funded up front by the ECB (read Germany). The entire focus of Euroland is to keep the IMF carpet baggers out.
 
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