GREECE - the fall-out for Liveaboards

[Oliveoyl]

Barbers OK, doctors not?

Davy....I have just had a look at this site....What's the deal with the receipts? From reading ,it would seem that you have to submit a stack of receipts every year,,from Tavernas,taxis,hairdressers etc etc in order to keep your tax bill down. How does it work? Confused

Kind of understand the idea of "receipts" to decrease tax bill. Here in the country in which tax evasion is equivalent to patriotism, you either opt for standard tax deduction for expenses, or for "real expenses, for which you have to produce receipts. These receipts, however, are subject to tax rules, thus hairdressering maybe OK if top model or movie star, not OK if Joe Public. Common practice is to give, or even sell, restaurant receipts, cfr exchange of Lidl receipts posted previously.
Seems one of the major problems facing Greece at the moment is the collection of undeclared/ uncollected taxes. Can't see that wholesale trafficking of receipts, nor cash payments without VAT, is going to solve the problem? As for cutting back on public sector payroll, seems they'll have to employ armies of tax inspectors just to check the receipts!

Whatever, will continue my contribution to the Greek economy,every little helps

 

[grafozz]

tax by fear ....

I really find it laughable that everyone in Greece will collect receipts for everything they buy , can you imagine the volume ? who on earth is going to check these , millions and millions on tiny bits of paper ! they are just simple till receipts with no detail and the ink used on the average receipt here is totally faded and unreadable after a month or so ! Pasok is scratching around for new ideas to get people to pay thier taxes ok, but this is a tax idea based on fear of being caught out without the structure to implement it , and it will raise receipts not tax income ! IMHO the cost of living is so high here for ordinary income level people they cannot afford to pay more tax . the big tax evaders need to be targeted , the average wage was 740 pcm in Greece and 1499 in uk ( 2008 figures )and yet a high proportion of everyday goods is more expensive than uk ! it is bizzare ! and the majority of the workforce is paid "over the counter " they dont have the opportunity to avoid paying tax . I know many Greeks who have two or even three jobs just to afford to live . Many live with parents because there is no way they could ever get a mortgage to buy a house . when I tell of my son who bought his own house 2 years ago at 22 they are astonished ! it could not happen here based on the low income levels .
I feel sorry for the Greek people and hope that the new government can resolve the problems here , they seem to have their support , I wish them luck ,the Greeks are a good people , I live amongst them .

 

[charles_reed]

I really find it laughable that everyone in Greece will collect receipts for everything they buy , can you imagine the volume ? who on earth is going to check these , millions and millions on tiny bits of paper ! they are just simple till receipts with no detail and the ink used on the average receipt here is totally faded and unreadable after a month or so ! Pasok is scratching around for new ideas to get people to pay thier taxes ok, but this is a tax idea based on fear of being caught out without the structure to implement it , and it will raise receipts not tax income ! IMHO the cost of living is so high here for ordinary income level people they cannot afford to pay more tax . the big tax evaders need to be targeted , the average wage was 740 pcm in Greece and 1499 in uk ( 2008 figures )and yet a high proportion of everyday goods is more expensive than uk ! it is bizzare ! and the majority of the workforce is paid "over the counter " they dont have the opportunity to avoid paying tax . I know many Greeks who have two or even three jobs just to afford to live . Many live with parents because there is no way they could ever get a mortgage to buy a house . when I tell of my son who bought his own house 2 years ago at 22 they are astonished ! it could not happen here based on the low income levels .
I feel sorry for the Greek people and hope that the new government can resolve the problems here , they seem to have their support , I wish them luck ,the Greeks are a good people , I live amongst them .

I think you may have missed the point - demanding VAT receipts from purchasers is an attempt to get more VAT receipts from sellers and therefore collect VAT.
IMHO it's unlikely to succeed, being too roundabout.

Many years ago the Italians had a similar problem, their method worked - the Guardia Finanza were given the power to stop anyone coming out of a shop and demand to see their VAT receipt, if none both the purchaser and shopkeeper were arrested and fined.
To an extent the Guardia have relaxed - could well change in the near future.

As far as the Inland Revenue in the UK are concerned - you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent - they tell you what they think you owe and if you disagree you have to prove it.

Truth be, successive Greek governments have been lazy, incompetent and venial about collecting cash. Hosea 8:7 springs to mind.

The breathing space runs out at the end of March - if they can't borrow and are forced to default ....

 

[macd]

Many years ago the Italians had a similar problem, their method worked - the Guardia Finanza were given the power to stop anyone coming out of a shop and demand to see their VAT receipt, if none both the purchaser and shopkeeper were arrested and fined.

I remember it well. Every Italian was scared witless of the Finanza.

Oddly enough a huge Guardia Finanza boat was parked in Lesbos last summer. Can't imagine it was just a courtesy visit.

 

[GrowingLad]

Sounds like a lot of work for someone ...keeps them in a job I suppose.

[RANT MODE]

It's an absolute pain in the arse!!

It's basically making the punter on the street ask for receipts or his going to pay more tax than he needs to...By said punter asking for a receipt there is no way the money you've just handed over to the merchant can disappear into his pocket...there's a record of it so he's not going to be able to keep that quiet from the tax man.

Example. I had my starter motor repaired last week...50 euros...I say's, "Need a receipt"..."okay" says he, "60 euros"...it's just cost me an extra 10'er.....

Not to mention, when I do my tax return I have to enter all the receipt details on-line.....

Major pain in the arse!!! I'm PAYE, so there is no way I can screw my tax..it's gone before I even get my salary but I still have to do this ****...

Example, the Dr for my baby's birth cost us 2000 euro's...okay..receipt please...can't do says he...it was in a public hospital and I shouldn't have been working that day...What are you going to do...When the bar owners, Dr's, Lawyers and Taverna owners are paying the tax they should then things might improve...until then it's the bod on the street...who's legit, is getting it in the neck....oh and wait for it..if I buy something in the UK and have it sent here the receipt might not be valid....why the feck not...it's showing where my money that I earn is going.


Is it winding me up???
I actually dream't that I bumped into the PM yesterday and told him exactly what he needs to do (he grew up in the States so speaks very good English...in fact...better than his Greek)

You bet it's got my goat!!!

[/RANT MODE]

 

[GrowingLad]

Oh and something else when you are having your beer in the summer.

The price on the receipt..if you get one...will be for a beer..but check the tax %


Don't be surprised if it's at 9%...basically the receipt will say it's a coffee at 9% tax but the price will be for Beer...Once again the thieving gits who own the bars not only rip you off by charging too much for beer..but then don't pass on the correct amount to the Tax man...which I think should be 19% if memory serves me correct....

 

[Caladh]

For all the ranting thats going on here, can I ask if you are free to anchor in Greece and are most of the harbours free to moor ? Are marina's roughly the same price as here in the UK or France ?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

For all the ranting thats going on here, can I ask if you are free to anchor in Greece and are most of the harbours free to moor ? Are marina's roughly the same price as here in the UK or France ?

I like the ranting shows that people care.
Yes you can anchor for free .Moorings are privatly owned and you will be charged by their owner. Lots of marina are not finished and one can stay for free. No services though .Finished marina will have limited services from bad to Ok .Turkish marina are some of the best in the Med

cheers bobt

 

[Caladh]

Ranting doesn't show that you "care". In forums such as this it tends to be particulaly unbalanced....still in this can he is a Growinglad !

My point was that there appears to be much complaining about Greece going downhill fast and costs increasing. However when cruising is "cheap" compared to France/Spain/Italy we shouldn't complain too much and, much less - rant. We are all so lucky to be able to do what we do. Sometimes we lose sight of the plight of the other countries and their people. Sure, they've got to sort it out but if you don't like it there move on somewhere you do like !

Remember - there's always someone worse off you yourself.

 

[macd]

For all the ranting thats going on here, can I ask if you are free to anchor in Greece and are most of the harbours free to moor ? Are marina's roughly the same price as here in the UK or France ?

rtboss's summary tallies with my experience.

Operational marinas are few away from major population centres. Charges vary. I've paid 13 euros per night during high season in Thessalonika (10m boat), but you could easily pay three times that elsewhere. 'High season' rates often start 1 April. If I remember, Levkas marina wanted around 24 euros per night from me in low season, double that in April (cue mass exodus of liveaboards and charter boats).

There are dozens of unfinished marinas, usually with no services and often (but not always) free. Some are a little away from the local main harbour, so stooge in discretely and you probably won't be bothered. Most of them seemed doomed never to be finished.

Berthing on town quays, typical fee is around 6 euros per night, but as often as not this is't charged. Depends how vigilant the local harbour police are (clue: usually not very) or, in some cases, whether a self-appointed local does their job for them.

No-one has every tried to charge me for anchoring in Greece, even in enclosed harbours, and I do it a lot.

I've never picked up a Greek mooring. If I did, I'd want to dive on it to check it out. There seems little tradition, if any, for dedicated visitors moorings.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

My point was that there appears to be much complaining about Greece going downhill fast and costs increasing. However when cruising is "cheap" compared to France/Spain/Italy we shouldn't complain too much and, much less - rant. We are all so lucky to be able to do what we do. Sometimes we lose sight of the plight of the other countries and their people. Sure, they've got to sort it out but if you don't like it there move on somewhere you do like !


Hi
I think everywhere is going down hill fast. Where do you suggest we all go now.
As your post said you are moving out this year and for you ,you may find it wonderful compared to France/Spain /Italy. I cannot comment, as I have not sailed in France / Spain

However no matter how good it is now, it will be a lot harder and more expensive than it was. Ive been around these parts for 19 odd years and have seen the changes in the people and the towns.
I really think people who have not sailed here in the eastern Med ,should not comment, until they have tried it themselves for a couple of years No offence intended

Its still fantastic whether in Greece or Turkey.
Cheers bobt

 

[charles_reed]

Hi
I think everywhere is going down hill fast. Where do you suggest we all go now.
As your post said you are moving out this year and for you ,you may find it wonderful compared to France/Spain /Italy. I cannot comment, as I have not sailed in France / Spain

However no matter how good it is now, it will be a lot harder and more expensive than it was. Ive been around these parts for 19 odd years and have seen the changes in the people and the towns.
I really think people who have not sailed here in the eastern Med ,should comment until they have tried it themselfs for a couple of years No offence intended

Its still fantastic whether in Greece or Turkey.
Cheers bobt[/QUOTE]

I have sailed in France, Italy, Spain, Croatia and Greece - of the 5 France is easily the most civilised and certainly NOT the most expensive, but extremely crowded in season.
The Spanish Mediterranean ports are, IMHO, adequate, insecure and expensive. The Atlantic coast of Spain is just great and vastly superior to the Med.
Of the Croatia has great marinas with appalling high costs but 1000s of excellent anchorages most of which are free after you've been relieved of your £offlesh for the annual permit.
Italy is overcrowded, excessively high priced and very low security (unless you make your mark with the local capo) - marinas are few and far between, usually of poor quality and anchorages almost non-existent.
This leaves Greece, charmingly ramshackle, great folk, sailing which is only matched by Croatia and 100s of free anchorages and cheap town quays. Easily the most desirable for cruising - but what effect on this boating Eden will their current fiscal problems have - I suspect it's naive to expect nothing will happen.

The thread contained singularly few prognoses but lots of subjective rant.

 

[GrowingLad]

Ranting doesn't show that you "care". In forums such as this it tends to be particulaly unbalanced....still in this can he is a Growinglad !

My point was that there appears to be much complaining about Greece going downhill fast and costs increasing. However when cruising is "cheap" compared to France/Spain/Italy we shouldn't complain too much and, much less - rant. We are all so lucky to be able to do what we do. Sometimes we lose sight of the plight of the other countries and their people. Sure, they've got to sort it out but if you don't like it there move on somewhere you do like !

Remember - there's always someone worse off you yourself.

Rant...I think I'm bloody well entitled to rant.

I may not have been born here and my Greek is far far from fluent but I'm married to a Greek, my child is half Greek and I've been living here for the last 6 years full time. I work for a Greek company, I hold permanent residency and unless things really get much worse I'll probably spend the rest of my days here...I'm ranting about the fact that as a law abiding, full tax paying citizen I'm being made to do the job of the Tax man...Because many of them are crooked buggers who take bribes instead of collecting the tax...

What really gets my goat is when you have people only taking cash without receipts...and as I mentioned giving dodgy receipts with incorrect tax amounts.

People should come, it's a beautiful country with the majority of people being decent friendly people...but there needs to be a BIG shake up...we have some of the highest prices in Europe and our salaries are way way way below the rest of Europe...I want to spend my money here but it's cheaper to buy stuff in the UK and have it sent here.

My Rant isn't about the country..it's about the utter incompetence of the politicians and the thieving many who are very wealthy...mainly because they aren't paying their Tax...Many of whom are bar and restaurant owners.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Rant...I think I'm bloody well entitled to rant.

I may not have been born here and my Greek is far far from fluent but I'm married to a Greek, my child is half Greek and I've been living here for the last 6 years full time. I work for a Greek company, I hold permanent residency and unless things really get much worse I'll probably spend the rest of my days here...I'm ranting about the fact that as a law abiding, full tax paying citizen I'm being made to do the job of the Tax man...Because many of them are crooked buggers who take bribes instead of collecting the tax...

What really gets my goat is when you have people only taking cash without receipts...and as I mentioned giving dodgy receipts with incorrect tax amounts.

People should come, it's a beautiful country with the majority of people being decent friendly people...but there needs to be a BIG shake up...we have some of the highest prices in Europe and our salaries are way way way below the rest of Europe...I want to spend my money here but it's cheaper to buy stuff in the UK and have it sent here.

My Rant isn't about the country..it's about the utter incompetence of the politicians and the thieving many who are very wealthy...mainly because they aren't paying their Tax...Many of whom are bar and restaurant owners.

I understand your feelings very well. It really amazes me how prices have become so high, when as you say, wages are pretty low, so I really don't understand how the market place has worked. I think Greeces worst mistake was to be in the Euro - and possibly - in the EU itself, as it has actually raised expections of everyone, on the back of an enormous bubble!

I don't know how Greece and the other Pig nations get their tax systems sorted. They need root and branch reform, but where do you start from. Perhaps this is the start of the collapse of the West's gross social market economy, and everyone is going to have to lower their expectations of life.

 

[macd]

It really amazes me how prices have become so high, when as you say, wages are pretty low, so I really don't understand how the market place has worked.

My own sense (and it's not much more than that, although nothing I've heard contradicts it) is that part of the price issue is the traditional stranglehold middlemen have on goods. Examples: price paid by Greek retailer for Imray products stayed the same after £ dropped 30% against the Euro, the importer pocketing the differences*; large plastic fisherman's bucket bought for 1.25 in Spain: exactly the same item in a very ordinary Greek shop, 16.00 (yes, over 12 times as much.) There are many similar examples.

Some Greek people do very well out of this, but it's often not the retailer and definitely not the poor schmuck in the street.

*in this case I was delighted to help the retailer make an arrangement direct with Imray. Result: more profit for him, increased sales, and substantially lower prices for the customer. Everybody won except the rip-off mechant in Athens.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

My own sense (and it's not much more than that, although nothing I've heard contradicts it) is that part of the price issue is the traditional stranglehold middlemen have on goods. Examples: price paid by Greek retailer for Imray products stayed the same after £ dropped 30% against the Euro, the importer pocketing the differences*; large plastic fisherman's bucket bought for 1.25 in Spain: exactly the same item in a very ordinary Greek shop, 16.00 (yes, over 12 times as much.) There are many similar examples.

Some Greek people do very well out of this, but it's often not the retailer and definitely not the poor schmuck in the street.

*in this case I was delighted to help the retailer make an arrangement direct with Imray. Result: more profit for him, increased sales, and substantially lower prices for the customer. Everybody won except the rip-off mechant in Athens.

Have to agree with the above.
There is also the fact that all Greek stores /shops and buisnesses ,charge R.R.Prices as per the catalogue. No discounts unless you are a VERY regular customer.
Its still the best place to be though in the Med

cheers bobt

 

[highandry]

Its still the best place to be though in the Med

cheers bobt

Might get a bit crowded soon..everyone worried about grey water tanks in Turkey...Ha! it's the green tanks, ones with tracks and bloody big guns sticking out the front that may of more concern...

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Its still the best place to be though in the Med

cheers bobt

Might get a bit crowded soon..everyone worried about grey water tanks in Turkey...Ha! it's the green tanks, ones with tracks and bloody big guns sticking out the front that may of more concern...

The more that come the better for us, we have 1 ooring,

More trouble in Turkey !!!.More trouble in Turkey !!!Read all about It!!!

Cheers bobt

 

[GrowingLad]

My own sense (and it's not much more than that, although nothing I've heard contradicts it) is that part of the price issue is the traditional stranglehold middlemen have on goods. Examples: price paid by Greek retailer for Imray products stayed the same after £ dropped 30% against the Euro, the importer pocketing the differences*; large plastic fisherman's bucket bought for 1.25 in Spain: exactly the same item in a very ordinary Greek shop, 16.00 (yes, over 12 times as much.) There are many similar examples.

Some Greek people do very well out of this, but it's often not the retailer and definitely not the poor schmuck in the street.

*in this case I was delighted to help the retailer make an arrangement direct with Imray. Result: more profit for him, increased sales, and substantially lower prices for the customer. Everybody won except the rip-off mechant in Athens.

Very very true...

There are a group of very wealthy people who hold the reigns....

This may seem a little paranoid but truth is stranger that fiction.

I try and time any big purchases with trips back to the UK or visits from UK friends.

 

[grumpygit]

My own sense (and it's not much more than that, although nothing I've heard contradicts it) is that part of the price issue is the traditional stranglehold middlemen have on goods. Examples: price paid by Greek retailer for Imray products stayed the same after £ dropped 30% against the Euro, the importer pocketing the differences*; large plastic fisherman's bucket bought for 1.25 in Spain: exactly the same item in a very ordinary Greek shop, 16.00 (yes, over 12 times as much.) There are many similar examples.

Some Greek people do very well out of this, but it's often not the retailer and definitely not the poor schmuck in the street.

*in this case I was delighted to help the retailer make an arrangement direct with Imray. Result: more profit for him, increased sales, and substantially lower prices for the customer. Everybody won except the rip-off mechant in Athens.

Oh come off it !

Don't blame the Greek's for being Greek and thinking with naiveity of your understanding of their business demeanour. Do you think your twopen'th worth about Imray will be passed on to all and sundry? For sure I doubt it and If you think that, you're in cloud cuckoo land. If one does not like what's on offer, go somewhere else or do a deal there and then.

I think Growing Lad has summed it up from the Greek prospective and I have put my bit in earlier too. The Status Quo is changing and whinge-ing and pontificating will not make the slightest difference.
Greece is still probably one of the cheapest and best places to sail........Just live with it and take it on the chin, otherwise if the fire is too hot get out and make more room for us that appreciate what we've got including the changes and all, because we can't change em ! ............We are visitors and please remember this as it's their backyard not ours.......

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