GREECE - the fall-out for Liveaboards

[charles_reed]

It looks as though €land are going to refuse to unconditionally bail out Greece (a fact written into the €-charter which seems to have been overlooked by the financial markets).

Unless the Greek government really show they've slashed budgets, cut public payrolls and upped tax-take such support is unlikely to be forthcoming.
The Catch 22 situation is that they're unlikely to be able to make even the inadequate proposals so far tabled, stick with their population.

So tougher actions and tremendous belt-tightening or breakdown of public-politico consensus.
If the latter, payday for public workers will probably be missed (the last government had already forgotten to pay some drug companies, it's alleged).

How will that affect liveaboards from other European countries?

I'd be interested in other's views,especially as I'm due to be back there on 3rd March.

IMHO:-
1. Public transport will be disrupted.
2. Reliance on the European Health Card could be misplaced.
3. Port Police may become more active in seeking to get their wages, bypassing the government.
etc.

 

[CharlesSwallow]

Charles, I'm sitting here on the hard at Gouvia....

...watching the black economy frantically at work on foreign boats. I am also aware that my shopping trip to AB this morning cost me a lot more (in €s) than it did last year. A bottle of scotch is €14.50 and a tin of salmon (pink) is €4.50. Just spoke to a charter operator who tells me that his bookings are on par with this time last year.

Did you know that the public sector workforce here gets 14 paydays a year? Yes 14 NOT 12 as in every other country. The pay structure consists of a productivity bonus on top of a fixed salary amount and so many workers "busy themselves doing nothing" to maintain their income levels.

So with a huge number avoiding tax, shop prices out of control, a public sector being overpaid AND a new Prime Minister organising jollys around the world at vast cost for himself and his cronies, is it any wonder that Greece is going to the dogs?

Greece never earned the new levels of prosperity it has assumed and now the bubble has burst.

Chas

 

[macd]

It looks as though €land are going to refuse to unconditionally bail out Greece (a fact written into the €-charter which seems to have been overlooked by the financial markets).

Unless the Greek government really show they've slashed budgets, cut public payrolls and upped tax-take such support is unlikely to be forthcoming.
The Catch 22 situation is that they're unlikely to be able to make even the inadequate proposals so far tabled, stick with their population.

So tougher actions and tremendous belt-tightening or breakdown of public-politico consensus.
If the latter, payday for public workers will probably be missed (the last government had already forgotten to pay some drug companies, it's alleged).

How will that affect liveaboards from other European countries?

I'd be interested in other's views,especially as I'm due to be back there on 3rd March.

IMHO:-
1. Public transport will be disrupted.
2. Reliance on the European Health Card could be misplaced.
3. Port Police may become more active in seeking to get their wages, bypassing the government.
etc.

I'm no economics expert, but have been following the Greek tragedy daily in the FT. Hard not to. It's usually on the front page.

I don't think the markets have overlooked anything. And apart from anything else, the German consitution (let alone its citizens, who didn't sign up to being the Euro's guarantor) preclude their being a party to a bail-out. Above all the EU is keen not to set a precedent by overtly bailing Greece out. On the other hand, were Greece to resort to IMF help, it would be a major embrassment to the Euro...the sort of embarassment the financial markets don't like.

The Greek PM currently enjoys unprecedented public support, in general and for his austerity measures. Whether that will wash with the unions is another matter.
The drugs non-payment is more than an allegation and amounts to billions (5 or 6 at the last count). There's been no suggestion so far that it will cause widespread withdrawal of medical services. I'm inclined to take the view that the crisis, and above all Greece's need for support from the EU, will cause it to be more aware of its EU obligations rather than less. But who knows?

There has been much speculation that Greece might eventually leave the Euro (even though there is no mechanism for it to do so). Heaven knows what the consequences of this might be.

Yes, Greece is in a major pickle (as are Portugal, Spain and Ireland). It will have consequences for everyone there. Disruption to transport will probably be limited to the consequences of industrial action rather than an overall failure (the collapse of Olympic airlines notwithstanding). My guess is that the impact on liveaboards will be rather less than on the general population.

Perhaps the greater issue for liveaboards is that many are de facto residents who should pay Greek taxes, but don't (which rather makes hypocritical any criticism of lax Greek tax collecting.) If I were the Greek chancellor, I'd certainly be casting an eye in that direction. But even if that happens, it won't come out of thin air. There will be notice. (In the meantime, folk might want to check up on the double taxation treaty between the UK and Greece )

I've written before that anyone with an affection for Greece, anyone who's enjoyed its hospitality (and the very laxness that is part of its economic problems), might think twice before baling out. The sunshine won't be taxed, nor the wonderful sailing. But each to his own.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I'm no economics expert, but have been following the Greek tragedy daily in the FT. Hard not to. It's usually on the front page.

I don't think the markets have overlooked anything. And apart from anything else, the German consitution (let alone its citizens, who didn't sign up to being the Euro's guarantor) preclude their being a party to a bail-out. Above all the EU is keen not to set a precedent by overtly bailing Greece out. On the other hand, were Greece to resort to IMF help, it would be a major embrassment to the Euro...the sort of embarassment the financial markets don't like.

The Greek PM currently enjoys unprecedented public support, in general and for his austerity measures. Whether that will wash with the unions is another matter.
The drugs non-payment is more than an allegation and amounts to billions (5 or 6 at the last count). There's been no suggestion so far that it will cause widespread withdrawal of medical services. I'm inclined to take the view that the crisis, and above all Greece's need for support from the EU, will cause it to be more aware of its EU obligations rather than less. But who knows?

There has been much speculation that Greece might eventually leave the Euro (even though there is no mechanism for it to do so). Heaven knows what the consequences of this might be.

Yes, Greece is in a major pickle (as are Portugal, Spain and Ireland). It will have consequences for everyone there. Disruption to transport will probably be limited to the consequences of industrial action rather than an overall failure (the collapse of Olympic airlines notwithstanding). My guess is that the impact on liveaboards will be rather less than on the general population.

Perhaps the greater issue for liveaboards is that many are de facto residents who should pay Greek taxes, but don't (which rather makes hypocritical any criticism of lax Greek tax collecting.) If I were the Greek chancellor, I'd certainly be casting an eye in that direction. But even if that happens, it won't come out of thin air. There will be notice. (In the meantime, folk might want to check up on the double taxation treaty between the UK and Greece )

I've written before that anyone with an affection for Greece, anyone who's enjoyed its hospitality (and the very laxness that is part of its economic problems), might think twice before baling out. The sunshine won't be taxed, nor the wonderful sailing. But each to his own.

Good bit of common sense written here.
I potter between Turkey Greece and Italy. Although prices have and will go up. Greece IMO still has a lot to offer the livaboard sailor
cheers

 

[V1701]

...watching the black economy frantically at work on foreign boats. I am also aware that my shopping trip to AB this morning cost me a lot more (in €s) than it did last year. A bottle of scotch is €14.50 and a tin of salmon (pink) is €4.50. Just spoke to a charter operator who tells me that his bookings are on par with this time last year.

Did you know that the public sector workforce here gets 14 paydays a year? Yes 14 NOT 12 as in every other country. The pay structure consists of a productivity bonus on top of a fixed salary amount and so many workers "busy themselves doing nothing" to maintain their income levels.

So with a huge number avoiding tax, shop prices out of control, a public sector being overpaid AND a new Prime Minister organising jollys around the world at vast cost for himself and his cronies, is it any wonder that Greece is going to the dogs?

Greece never earned the new levels of prosperity it has assumed and now the bubble has burst.

Chas

Imported goods = expensive. Sorry but the rest of what you say reminds me of whining ex-pats in Spain. If you don't like it go elsewhere...

 

[lille_bee]

(the last government had already forgotten to pay some drug companies, it's alleged).

Probably not the same drug companies who bribed Greek health officials:

http://www.pjonline.com/news/bribery_bill_bitter_pill_industry_to_swallow

 

[CharlesSwallow]

So, the Spaniards evade taxes too eh?

Imported goods = expensive. Sorry but the rest of what you say reminds me of whining ex-pats in Spain. If you don't like it go elsewhere...

You don't seem a friendly sort of person so I'll not comment upon your spat.

Greek Grown peppers €2.50 a kilo and Greek canned salmon even more expensive than imported at €5.40. There is no mileage in your "go elsewhere" philosophy, is there? They need my custom. There I DID comment.

Chas

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Imported goods = expensive. Sorry but the rest of what you say reminds me of whining ex-pats in Spain. If you don't like it go elsewhere...

I dont think Chas is a whining ex-pat

IMO he`s quite correct in pointing out that inflation in Greece is getting out of control
and it is now quite an expensive place to live if you are not careful with your money. Ide say it is 10% dearer to shop in a supermarket here, than in the UK. A small tin of tuna will set you back 2 euro and the special offer promotional three tin pack 6.5 eur

cheers

 

[SeamanStaines]

Greek canned salmon even more expensive than imported at €5.40.

Ummm.... Salmon is a native fish species in Greece?

 

[tri39]

I think the most alarming thing in all this is that Brusselles is taking the power to enforce financial reform in Greece, by using majority voting (Greece's vote may even be stripped) at the next EU Financial ministers meeting on 16th March. This is loss of financial sovereignty allowed under draconian measures in the Lisbon treaty and is designed to ensure that an EU bailout will work. But it's a warning to all of us of where the EU is heading.
Papandreou still has majority support for reforms already proposed. But there are going to many strikes in the public sector, starting with the customs officials next week. Anti Eu feeling in Greece is going to run high this year.

 

[macd]

I think the most alarming thing in all this is that Brusselles is taking the power to enforce financial reform in Greece, by using majority voting (Greece's vote may even be stripped) at the next EU Financial ministers meeting on 16th March. This is loss of financial sovereignty allowed under draconian measures in the Lisbon treaty and is designed to ensure that an EU bailout will work. But it's a warning to all of us of where the EU is heading.
Papandreou still has majority support for reforms already proposed. But there are going to many strikes in the public sector, starting with the customs officials next week. Anti Eu feeling in Greece is going to run high this year.

That reads as a touch more of a knee-jerk response to your view of the topic than a reasoned reaction. If Greece had called in IMF help, strict conditions would certainly be imposed which would effectively reduce Greek sovereignty. As a UK taxpayer (I'm presuming) contributing to any bail-out plan, would you be happy to give Greece carte blanche? I suspect not. I'm damn sure I wouldn't, even without its past record of financial deceit.

 

[David_Jersey]

No obligation for the EU or the Eurozone to "bail out" Greece, anymore than an obligation to bail out the Ukraine, or Haiti..........or the UK.

If the Greeks want support (ie cash) whether from the Markets, the EU or the IMF then ball is in their court - to meet the lending requirements. or not. No blank cheques around.

Soveriegnty is full of choices

My reading of the situation is that so far the current Greek Govt is doing the right thing and so are the unions / strikers

The answer to the Greek deficit is simply to collect the taxes due (unfortunately not so simple a solution available for the UK ), albeit not something that can be brought in overnight as although not new taxes will feel like it for the economy if done all at once. Most of those missing taxes ain't coming from the workers - the workers are right to fight to ensure that (as far as possible) they do not pay the price instead of those who owe the taxes.........I think the Greek govt is playing a canny hand to try and keep the population onside and politically isolate those with a vested interest in not sorting out the tax collection system, the proof will of course be in action taken, especially once the immediate crisis is overcome.........will the Greek Govt then lose the will to sort the longterm structural problem out? - or adopt a Gordon Brown short term political advantage "solution" involving fingers in ears whilst chanting "la la la".

 

[tri39]

That reads as a touch more of a knee-jerk response to your view of the topic than a reasoned reaction. If Greece had called in IMF help, strict conditions would certainly be imposed which would effectively reduce Greek sovereignty. As a UK taxpayer (I'm presuming) contributing to any bail-out plan, would you be happy to give Greece carte blanche? I suspect not. I'm damn sure I wouldn't, even without its past record of financial deceit.

It's not a knee jerk response , it's the considered view of a senior financial journalist in the Daily Telegraph! I don't suppose the Greeks appreciate being called deceitful either, macd!

 

[macd]

It's not a knee jerk response , it's the considered view of a senior financial journalist in the Daily Telegraph! I don't suppose the Greeks appreciate being called deceitful either, macd!

Ok, then: his knee, not yours.

And it's not me calling successive Greek governments deceitful. It's Papandreou. He apologised very publicly for it.

 

[Davy_S]

For what its worth, I live here full time, the Greek people rich or poor have been used to having to pay in a brown envelope for, planning permition, to see a doctor quickly for a sick child etc. The same people have backed Papandreous in his tax reforms, 67% in favour, providing the fat cats pay as well! ie, doctors avoiding tax, claiming they only earn 22,000 euros! Taverna owners driving Mercs claiming they only earn 6,000 Euros.
No not blame All the Greeks, they know nothing else, nor have they had any reason to trust any politician in the past. A lot needs to change, hopefully it will do, it is a lovely country full of very hospitable people, it deserves better!

The attack on Charles was not justified! He lives here most of the time and is entitled to his opinion. Please let us not have personal attacks like the lounge on here.

 

[grumpygit]

It looks as though €land are going to refuse to unconditionally bail out Greece (a fact written into the €-charter which seems to have been overlooked by the financial markets).

Unless the Greek government really show they've slashed budgets, cut public payrolls and upped tax-take such support is unlikely to be forthcoming.
The Catch 22 situation is that they're unlikely to be able to make even the inadequate proposals so far tabled, stick with their population.

So tougher actions and tremendous belt-tightening or breakdown of public-politico consensus.
If the latter, payday for public workers will probably be missed (the last government had already forgotten to pay some drug companies, it's alleged).

How will that affect liveaboards from other European countries?

I'd be interested in other's views,especially as I'm due to be back there on 3rd March.

IMHO:-
1. Public transport will be disrupted.
2. Reliance on the European Health Card could be misplaced.
3. Port Police may become more active in seeking to get their wages, bypassing the government.
etc.

For my ten bobs worth, (50p or €.57) I fear that there will be no easy answer to the financial problems that Greece has to face. If the EU does end up intervening it will go against the EU Constitution and open the flood gates to other countries to hold their begging bowls out. If they don't the Euro becomes threatend to a degree. This is because it falls way short of the dreamers who put together the ideology of the Eurozone.
Remember also that if the UK had not been able to print more money we would have been in the same position financially and the Euro-la la-land would have told us where to go sharp-ish.
Another part of all Greece's problems are that they already owe millions upon millions to other member states as it is, including the UK. Would you readily give monies to someone who was already heavily in debt to you ?
Think hard before you answer that one......

How did Greece get to this position, a bit like Nero, "Fiddled while Rome burnt" but the Greeks fiddling was not musical but sure as hell Greece is burning to the point of being burnt out.
The measures they have introduced up to now is small fry as in hitting the people that already pay taxes. The main culprits are the wealthy, businesses and companies that see tax evasion as a national sport and their given right not to pay.
For sure I don't think the Greeks will appreciate wage cuts/freezes/taxes, and will not take it lying down, so there will be strikes, disruptions and probably some violence from the poorer areas of Athens.

How this will effect us as a liveaboards I am not sure except all things are going to get more expensive without doubt. Here on Aegina, fuel has risen and so have some foods but tobacco and drink is for the moment still the same money it was six months ago.

On the bright side the food such as fresh meat, fish and vegetables is much better quality especially when bought from the local producers and I would say price wise on a par with the UK.
Plenty of sunshine/sea/sailing/Islands etc. I can't think of a more hospitable with an easy life style and sailing friendly place to be in as the Med/Aegean.

So what will be will be and no amout of moaning and groaning from us will change a thing, unless someone knows different....!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[macd]

For a grumpygit you make a lot of sense.

 

[charles_reed]

It's not a knee jerk response , it's the considered view of a senior financial journalist in the Daily Telegraph! I don't suppose the Greeks appreciate being called deceitful either, macd!

Surely a little naive to expect an EC-neutral opinion from ANY Daily Telegraph reporter - the more senior surely the more reactionary?

There is a saying - no privilege without responsibility - if a bankrupt is allowed forgiveness of debt he has to have a "keeper".

What's different with the Greek Government?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Surely a little naive to expect an EC-neutral opinion from ANY Daily Telegraph reporter - the more senior surely the more reactionary?

There is a saying - no privilege without responsibility - if a bankrupt is allowed forgiveness of debt he has to have a "keeper".

What's different with the Greek Government?

Charles, one can understand the anger of the average wage earner who pays his taxes, at the way the wealthy don't pay. Perphaps they will have to go through a period of violence to get their goverment to act, and this might be bad for us yachties.

Perhaps the only out for them short term to raise taxes is to raise VAT on luxury goods to 30% - then they would collect the taxes - but increase the smuggling! So How do they do it? Not an easy problem tacking such a systemic problem.

One thing is clear - No one or country should be let off the hook - we are respnsible for our own governments - and even Mr Brown......

 

[rtchina]

14 pay days per year is usual in a lot of countries, not just Greece. What is the point of having a high tax rate, for which there is a high incentive to avoid, when you could have a low tax rate which people are willing to pay? Brown knew that when he upped the top rate of tax, the tax take would go down, but still politicians persist in advocating the Hanse Christian Anderson fantasy which modern politics has become.

Generally, political planning projects no further than the next election. Politicians who act in the long term are called statesmen, but we seem to have run out of those.

I'm going to Greece this year to spend my money and support the economy a little bit. I really hope that it all comes right