GPS replacement

[Dockhead]

I think it’s the other way around judging by these forums. Older members are constantly trying to convince younger ones that there’s a doomsday scenario coming.

Loss of GNSS is not doomsday, objectively, whatever age you are. Good grief. People had been navigating the seas for thousands of years before GPS.

I'm somewhat sorry that LORAN has been dismantled, however. LORAN was a real game-changer. I still have a LORAN set from my Father's old boat in an attic somewhere.

Back in the day, I also had a Heathkit RDF set. Almost as good as LORAN around a coast with a lot of charted radio transmitters, and more reliable.

But you don't need any electronics at all if you have a HBC and basic skills. And a chart.

 

[lustyd]

Loss of GNSS is not doomsday, objectively, whatever age you are

My point was that I've never seen anyone who grew up with GPS worrying about it, they generally understand all of the tools and just get on with it. Every thread I've ever seen on the subject on this forum was started by older folk who don't trust the new fangled satellite stuff, often accompanied by their declaration of love for a sextant and archaic speed log.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Genuinely curious how people are approaching backup navigation these days.

Whenever someone says 'genuinely curious' it always seems to turn out to be another reason for asking.

 

[ducked]

I think it’s the other way around judging by these forums. Older members are constantly trying to convince younger ones that there’s a doomsday scenario coming.

Cold War Babies are habituated to the idea of “doomesday scenario coming” since one had been planned and massively invested in for most or all of our lives.

Maybe less planned now, but Im not sure that mesns its less likely to happen

 

[SaltyC]

Perhaps those who have always had GPS don't comprehend that it may not be there? Blind faith in technology.
Those of us pre GPS (plus RDF), understand the implications but despite assertions we are 'stuck in old ways' use modern electronics and do not want to go backwards?
We are capable, have the skills but prefer the convenience of 'knowing where we are' rather than thinking and aiming 'off' knowing to turn to port or starboard when approaching.

 

[lustyd]

Perhaps those who have always had GPS don't comprehend that it may not be there? Blind faith in technology.

There it is! Perhaps younger people actually do know what they’re doing, you’re making wild assumptions about other people’s capability based entirely on your own thoughts.

 

[SaltyC]

There it is! Perhaps younger people actually do know what they’re doing, you’re making wild assumptions about other people’s capability based entirely on your own thoughts.

Or experience of the younger generations blind faith in technology and its infallibility rather than their ability.

 

[Marsali_1]

Or experience of the younger generations blind faith in technology and its infallibility rather than their ability.

I'm sorry to say that anyone trying to debate or discuss with the poster you are replying to will find that it will be successful only if they realize that resistance is futile and that they will be assimilated.

 

[lustyd]

Or experience of the younger generations blind faith in technology and its infallibility rather than their ability.

What a weird arrogant stance. You seem completely convinced of your own infallibility, ironically the thing you accuse the younger generation of.
I’ve yet to see any plausible explanation of why GNSS will even fail, let alone evidence young people don’t have traditional navigation skills.

 

[jbweston]

Stupidity doesn't correlate with age or youth. Nor does experience, unfortunately.

I'm 'old' - 71. Whenever I hear someone suggesting that because they're older they have more experience I always ask myself 'more experience of what, exactly?'. Many a young un has more experience of some things than I do. I have more experience than them of some other things. Experience is 'thing-specific'.

A former colleague of mine used to say 'Whenever someone tells you they have X years' experience, ask yourself is it X years' of experience, or is it the same one year of experience repeated over and over X times'.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Stupidity doesn't correlate with age or youth. Nor does experience, unfortunately.

I'm 'old' - 71. Whenever I hear someone suggesting that because they're older they have more experience I always ask myself 'more experience of what, exactly?'. Many a young un has more experience of some things than I do. I have more experience than them of some other things. Experience is 'thing-specific'.

A former colleague of mine used to say 'Whenever someone tells you they have X years' experience, ask yourself is it X years' of experience, or is it the same one year of experience repeated over and over X times'.

Your colleague was right. I experienced a great deal of this when I moved from military to civilian aviation. Years of flying between the same airport pairs made some very good at flying between those airport pairs. Anything else and they were completely out of their zone. Breadth of experience is as, if not more important as depth. Some can be very good at venturing into the unknown but terrible at routine operations and others vice versa.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Given the nature of the question and the profile of his/her user I think there is a very high chance of the OP 'stevie buoy' is a journalist fishing for info , quotes to support a story.

As someone who sailed before gps, a sextant would be irrelevant for coastal navigation. Dead reckoning would also be difficult due to the absence of tools developed during and after the second world war to make coastal navigation safer and make fixes out of sight of land. Directional radio beacons, then loran etc.

The reason that the uk coast is littered with shipwrecks is that coastal navigation without modern aids was hard and prone to error.

 

[dunedin]

….
I’ve yet to see any plausible explanation of why GNSS will even fail, ……

https://rin.org.uk/page/RIN_Maritime_Report

 

[lustyd]

https://rin.org.uk/page/RIN_Maritime_Report

The intro lists the examples. Every single one is a conflict area with an aggressor jamming from their sovereign territory.

Utterly and completely irrelevant to the leisure sailor unless they choose to sail into those waters.

 

[dunedin]

The intro lists the examples. Every single one is a conflict area with an aggressor jamming from their sovereign territory.

Utterly and completely irrelevant to the leisure sailor unless they choose to sail into those waters.

Well that depends on where you sail, and assumes you know exactly where “conflict areas” will occur.
Plenty of shadow ships passing just outside UK waters. They could easily choose to create chaos if they decided to.
Plus it is possible that severe solar events could cause impacts.

 

[SaltyC]

Your colleague was right. I experienced a great deal of this when I moved from military to civilian aviation. Years of flying between the same airport pairs made some very good at flying between those airport pairs. Anything else and they were completely out of their zone. Breadth of experience is as, if not more important as depth. Some can be very good at venturing into the unknown but terrible at routine operations and others vice versa.

I agree, there are many locals (usually non commercial) fishermen who know there local waters intimately from years of fishing the same waters, yet cannot navigate in the broad sense but there local knowledge is beyond reproach.

As we tell younsters starting in dinghies the main way to learn is time on the water, courses will give the basics but then you learn over time by doing more (racing?) Not just reaching back and forth.

The same applies to yacht sailing, you can do the courses, zero to hero in 13 weeks!
Then you start to learn, sailing in different areas and conditions, entering strange harbours, sailing with or in company with other professional sailors and beginners, you learn from all. The beauty of sailing, to me, is you never stop learning.

With gear failures at sea you develop self reliance and practical skills, you learn to recognise potential points of failure and mitigate the potential for catastrophic failure.

Yes, after a summer in the Isles of Scilly and noting the wrecks it was nice to have the comfort of GPS & Chart plotter. However many of these were in times when longitude was difficult to calculate or after transatlantic passages without a sun sight.

Coastal navigation today in the event of electronic failure should be quite easy to achieve a safe haven, many of us now also have radar to confirm our position. Although I agree 99% use GPS, getting your head out of the boat and not navigating the little boat on the screen gives an understanding of surroundings, an appreciation of nature and pleasure in our scenic coastline.

 

[lustyd]

Well that depends on where you sail, and assumes you know exactly where “conflict areas” will occur.
Plenty of shadow ships passing just outside UK waters. They could easily choose to create chaos if they decided to.
Plus it is possible that severe solar events could cause impacts.

UK waters are protected by our navy and that would be stopped almost immediately.
Conflict areas are widely reported in the news. Stay away from Russia, Israel, Iran, USA and a few others including their minor territories. The Baltic issue is specifically Russian territory so don’t go near that.

 

[lustyd]

Then you start to learn

But at the same time you start to forget. I’ve seen better sailors straight out of a course than many seasoned sailors with engrained but bad techniques and habbits.
Also how many even go back for more training? Many sailors over a certain age have never had formal training in the use of a modern plotter. Modern courses cover both.

 

[wonkywinch]

I understand that most jamming is by blitzing the GNSS frequencies with a rogue transmission. The frequency the satellites use (1200~1500 MHz) is very much line of sight so a bad actor in an adjacent country could turn on a transmitter that would radiate up into the sky and even reach the moon (I used to do moon bounce with 145MHz amateur radio transmissions).

At sea level though, line of sight is very much reduced. Even if the transmitter was on top of a 10,000 foot mountain, then range is only c 125 miles. For sea level activities in continental Europe, you are very unlikely to experience the effects of GPS jamming whereas a plane at 40,000 feet could be affected 400 miles away (by that mountain top transmitter).

PBO May 2026 has an article (page 6) on GNSS security issues.

 

[Dockhead]

My point was that I've never seen anyone who grew up with GPS worrying about it, they generally understand all of the tools and just get on with it. Every thread I've ever seen on the subject on this forum was started by older folk who don't trust the new fangled satellite stuff, often accompanied by their declaration of love for a sextant and archaic speed log.

I can't really comment.

The young sailors I'm around were mostly trained by me personally, and they know their way around a HBC.

Don't know about others.

But neither do I know any old sailors who don't "trust the new-fangled satellite stuff". How old would you have to be, for GNSS to be "new-fangled"? It's been around since my childhood, and I've been using it since the mid-90's -- that's 40 years!!

Garmin GPS-50 came out in 1994. I think I still have mine in an attic somewhere.