Golden globe - one opinion

  • Thread starter Thread starter GHA
  • Start date Start date
I may have missed something, but the GGR team have been unsurprisingly quiet on the issue - much trumpeted before the Start - of the 'carefully-checked astro sight and position calculations' supposedly handed-in at Hobart and at the Finish.

Very quiet.....

We're all aware that some competitors 'gleaned' position information from unsanctioned HF nets. I'm not going to accuse any competitor of falsifying sight logs to accommodate any electronic or radio position information. However, I simply do not believe they all navigated all the way round - or even parts of the way round - solely by traditional means.
 
zoidberg said:
...but the GGR team have been unsurprisingly quiet on the issue - much trumpeted before the Start....

However, I simply do not believe they all navigated all the way round - or even parts of the way round - solely by traditional means.
Click to expand...

Nobody does, yet it appears some did and paid the price. It remains speculation at this stage but if this turns out to be the back story, it’s bad news.
 
GHA said:
.... The report on why Susie's JSD bridle parted will be interesting. ....
Click to expand...

There is more information now on Attainable Adventure Cruising (AAC) (www.morganscloud.com). They estimate that she was using an undersized JSD based on Jordan's design sizing notes and the expected weight of the boat. Also the manufacturers of her JSD used a knot instead of a splice which weakened the bridle, they have now stated that they will splice FOC any that they have supplied. Adding both these together at her claim of a larger wave, then Jordan's design notes suggest the whole assembly was undersized. If I interpret the article correctly, if the weight of the boat had been known and his design notes followed a larger bridle would have been used with no knots.

Susie Goodall has not yet commented on her incident. AAC article is based on Jordan's design notes, estimates of the boat weight and Ocean Brake's (constructors of the JSD) feedback.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
There is more information now on Attainable Adventure Cruising (AAC) (www.morganscloud.com). They estimate that she was using an undersized JSD based on Jordans design sizing notes and the expected weight of the boat. Also the manufacturers of her JSD used a knot instead of a splice which weakened the bridle, they have now stated that they will splice FOC any that they have supplied. Adding both these together at her claim of the larger wave then Jorden's design notes suggest the whole assembly was undersized. If I interpret the article correctly, if the weight of the boat had been known and his design notes followed a larger bridle would have been used with no knots.

Susie Goodall has not yet commented on her incident. AAC article is based on Jordan's design notes, estimates of the boat weight and Ocean Brake's (constructors of the JSD) feedback.
Click to expand...

I must say I was startled to see the knot used.

FWIW, Lloyd’s Register have a testing facility in Southampton and I can see no reason for the locally based makers of safety equipment not to use it.
 
Minn said:
I must say I was startled to see the knot used.

FWIW, Lloyd’s Register have a testing facility in Southampton and I can see no reason for the locally based makers of safety equipment not to use it.
Click to expand...

The knot was there originally to allow for easier addition of more rode/cones apparently, now spliced. I've read the second piece which is behind the paid site wall, interesting for the comments as much as anything. The morgans cloud can be quite strong with it's opinions but though I don't always agree it's a generally good thing imho, and worth a few quid a year just to read the comments which are as often as not from experienced world girdling cruisers who been out there doing it. The slightly back of a fag packet figures in the piece point to Don Jordan being accurate with his figures and even Susie who had a drogue part says she will be getting another one. One thing , there is such a tiny number of drogues which actually get to experience apartment sized waves in extreme conditions that it's not surprising any design improvements are hard to nail, tiny sample size. Another guy wrote on MC about sailing Nova Scotia to NZ and never even thinking about needing to deploy the JSD until he got down into the southern ocean.
We can but look at listen to them's what's been there :)
 
Minn said:
I will have to fork over the few quid. But the explanation offered for using the knot doesn’t make sense unless the extra length of rope was left on.
Click to expand...

Here, again, is a pic of the relevant knot - a Double Figure of Eight or 'Flemish Loop' - which, it is now understood, failed.


31352920047_6dbca01019_z.jpg


Here's another...

46280271511_91aa94b054_z.jpg



It has been argued elsewhere, by me and others, that such a means of termination/attachment is certain to invoke some degree of loss of ultimate strength of the rope. It is also argued that the actual all-up weight of the boat, including stores, was considerably higher than the 20,000lb design max. displacement of the JSD that was used, therefore much higher loads came onto the drogue. There weren't enough drag-making cones, it seems, for her actual displacement so her speed/momentum was likely higher than optimum when the final test came.

This is part of a development, and learning, process. It is reported that Susie Goodall WILL have another drogue, an improved version, from GaleRider who supplied her original JSD.
Suzanne Curphey-Huber, a multi-times singlehanded RTW cruiser has used her JSD several times, including one 'session' of 162 hours - and is refurbing hers ready for her next ocean trip. However, the manufacturer is reportedly now supplying all-Dyneema/Spectra/Amsteel rode, instead of braid-on-braid polyester.
 
zoidberg said:
Here, again, is a pic of the relevant knot - a Double Figure of Eight or 'Flemish Loop' - which, it is now understood, failed.


31352920047_6dbca01019_z.jpg


Here's another...

46280271511_91aa94b054_z.jpg



It has been argued elsewhere, by me and others, that such a means of termination/attachment is certain to invoke some degree of loss of ultimate strength of the rope. It is also argued that the actual all-up weight of the boat, including stores, was considerably higher than the 20,000lb design max. displacement of the JSD that was used, therefore much higher loads came onto the drogue. There weren't enough drag-making cones, it seems, for her actual displacement so her speed/momentum was likely higher than optimum when the final test came.

This is part of a development, and learning, process. It is reported that Susie Goodall WILL have another drogue, an improved version, from GaleRider who supplied her original JSD.
Suzanne Curphey-Huber, a multi-times singlehanded RTW cruiser has used her JSD several times, including one 'session' of 162 hours - and is refurbing hers ready for her next ocean trip. However, the manufacturer is reportedly now supplying all-Dyneema/Spectra/Amsteel rode, instead of braid-on-braid polyester.
Click to expand...

Thats really interesting to know. I will check my JSD to see how my two halves join and how the bridle connects. I would be also be useful to know what the effect of none stretchy dyneema would be on the performance of the drogue compared to braid on braid nylon and the additional load dyneema my apply to the termination point at the boat.
My attachment point are s/s plates bolted through the very substantial toerail. I have no concern about strength here as my toerail is man enough but other threads here that talk about the use of anchor snubbers to reduce snatch loads and make very valid points about the large reduction in loads at the anchor when nylon snubbers are used. Potentially the use of dyneema could may be a problem if the attachment points re not super strong?
 
geem said:
Thats really interesting to know. I will check my JSD to see how my two halves join and how the bridle connects. I would be also be useful to know what the effect of none stretchy dyneema would be on the performance of the drogue compared to braid on braid nylon and the additional load dyneema my apply to the termination point at the boat.
My attachment point are s/s plates bolted through the very substantial toerail. I have no concern about strength here as my toerail is man enough but other threads here that talk about the use of anchor snubbers to reduce snatch loads and make very valid points about the large reduction in loads at the anchor when nylon snubbers are used. Potentially the use of dyneema could may be a problem if the attachment points re not super strong?
Click to expand...

The bridle is not relevant to damping of the motion when under a JSD. The damping comes from the cones progressive resistance with some fully working through to some not even being in the wave, also by the stretch of the main line. I think the bridle design will eventually default to high tensile strength ropes.
 
Geem, It's my understanding that the whole point of the JSD is that its design functions to prevent sudden, overloading shock loads such as can be experienced in anchor snubbing..... for which an elastic snubber is of course appropriate.

The idea is that the far end of the string of cones is way out beyond the wave-cycle which is accelerating the boat, preferably 2 cyclic waves back, and so the load comes on progressively and sequentially. The weight on the end is important. Reports bear this out, telling of an initial acceleration on the front face of a big sea, then a gradual and increasing deceleration 'like a big elastic band' until the sea passes beneath. Given that, it is not the stretchiness of the rode which achieves the effect, but the progressive effect of 100+ cones sequentially adding-in their decelerative effect. Apparently, Don Jordan made this point clear in multiple communications during his life. It's all there if one researches it....

Given that different 'mechanical' process, the argument is that there is no benefit in having a stretchy rode, for that just interferes with the effect of Don Jordan's calculations - which have been shown and agreed by many to be right. The manufacturer of Goodall's JSD, Angus Coleman of OceanBrake, is reported now to be supplying his products solely with HD heat-treated Dyneema/Spectra/Dynice Dux rodes.

There are those who argue that their different interpretation of the physics is the right one. They are entitled to form a view, even a highly contrary one, and they are equally entitled to go out there in big weather and test out their ideas.... provided they do not lose some trusting innocent souls in the process. I'd disapprove of that. ;)

'Blessed are the cracked - for they let the light in....'


I note that 'Blowing......' ( see half an hour earlier ) has the same 'take' on this, but his post is succinct and probably the better for it.
As for the bridles, I have a pair of webbing lifting strops, built to an appropriate Standard and well up to the job, with chafe-protected end loops. They're cheap enough 'cos there's lots of them manufactured.
 
Last edited:
There are plenty of views being published - even some from folk who have 'been there, done that'. There are areas of agreement, and some of divergence - which is to be expected.

Several important points are emerging.... that the JSD carried/used needs to be big enough for the actual AUW of the vessel..... that the cones can fray and break up if lightweight fabric is used..... that chafe damage leading to what engineers call 'catastrophic failure' must be actively prevented..... that the debate of nylon vs UHMW ropes seems to have resolved in favour of the new fibres and structure.

It needs to be repeated, for too many find it convenient to ignore, that breaking seas of a size capable of rolling a modest sailboat can frequently be encountered around our coasts. The Woolfson Institute's research has shown definitively, that a breaking sea of half a boat's beam impacting ON the beam can and will capsize the boat.
Avoid getting 'beam on'....
 
Minn said:
Yes

Very well worth reading
Click to expand...

Read and inwardly digested....

My point of view....

'Jean-Luc Van Den Heede (FRA) Holman & Pye Rustler 36 Matmut
Whilst steering a course for Cape Horn, approx 120o True with a SW wind. His wind vane was holding the direction to within 20o either side of this course. Thinks the knockdown was a result of the boat slewing round beam on. He found his boat felt safe when going downwind/wave and points out the dangers of getting beam on

'Their knockdowns came as a result of coming beam on to a breaking waves either because that was how the boat wanted to lie without any restraint,'

So... was anyone on deck to see the boat 'slewing around'?

In my experience you don't get a luverly regular wave train..... you get -and lets take the first case of steering 120 in a swly gale - a BGBW and all its little chums that are not part of the regular wave train.

In a NW gale with an underlying SW swell from way down yonder you are odds on for a rather bigger than expected sea...... on the beam..

Lie to a drogue and stop your boat.... in that sort of sea? A bit like having your arms held behind your back while someone punches you in the side of the head... bet you didn't see that coming....

Rule #1 ... good weather info
Rule #2... avoid bad weather...
 
The trailing warps thing was a surprise, I thought that had been well and truly debunked years ago as simply not providing enough drag for any strategy. Rolling over on a beam sea was well and truly proven and been known for some time. I thought the strategies accepted these days were drogues or sea anchors. I now think speed is a good tactic and there is no doubt that weather routing to avoid storms should be a tool in everyones bag. There were non GGR participants in the same area, streaming drogues and then recovering them and carrying on.

It's strange that competitors used methods that have long been proven to be poor solutions for surviving rough seas. I am not sure what to make of the report. As a series of descriptions of incidents it is fine but it does not help anyone, no in-depth analysis has been attempted. There is nothing in the report that I have no read in other documents and books.
 
It seems - and is endorsed by many well-seasoned RTW cruisers - that there is no one 'magic bullet' technique that guarantees one will come through a storm unscathed. People have used streamed warps, tyres and poles on spinni halyards, all sorts of drag devices including aircraft brake parachutes. Many survived to trumpet their claim to 'knowing how'; others didn't.

Moitessier himself wrote of cutting away his streamed warps 'as they were restraining the boat'. He continued downwind, with a storm jib set, and steering now and then to take the worst seas on the quarter. Not everyone could cope with that level of fatigue, in the dark.

Right now, the JSD with 'consensus modifications' seems the best bet for the majority of us....... er, you. ;)

Me, I'm rediscovering the power of prayer!

Here's a pic of Jean-Luc VDH's 'Watt&Sea' hydrogenerator. It seems, as 'flaming' suggests, an excellent bit of kit, albeit expensive. Note the hefty traveller-track on which an emergency rudder MIGHT possibly be mounted.


45151874242_ab7f03db68.jpg



Here's a pic of the sort of problem that one of the most experienced of RTW sailors, 'SuperGran' Jeanne Socrates, is contending with in the Southern Ocean right now...


47687236321_2578ee1617_z.jpg



Oh, and the wind and seas rising again.....
 
KompetentKrew said:
Any chance of a direct link, please?
Click to expand...

It's in the post you just quoted! It's a members only article, so you need to join to read the article. No chance of a direct link I am afraid as it doesn't exist, I value the resource which is why I choose to pay for it. Also Susie Goodall has not released a full description of the incident yet, the data used at AAC is an interpretation of the facts from various sources, including JSD, the manufacturer and images of the yacht.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top