Going out knowing the weather is bad

[Nostrodamus]

Someone sets out knowing the weather is going to be bad and also refuses to listen to the advice of others about the conditions.
They then have to be rescued by a lifeboat or helicopter as the boat or crew are overwhelmed by the conditions.
Should there be any comeback on the skipper and if so what or do you just leave it as him being stupid?

 

[Talulah]

No comeback. Search for Hot Liquid Sailing and Liquid Vortex and you come to the conclusion it's impossible to get a successful prosecution against skippers for going out in bad weather.

 

[sighmoon]

'Heavy Weather Sailing' suggests going out in bad weather so you get a little used to it. On that note, I've deliberately set out in weather beyond my comfort zone. There's still a limit, of course.

As for the advice of others, I'd say it depends on who the others are. If the fishing fleet weren't going out, I might take note. If a chap in the next berth, with no better local knowledge than I, was giving unasked for advice, I may ignore it.

Needing rescue is subjective too. We had a broken forestay in a force 8 storm last year, and were tempted to let the coastguard know how things were, as we would not be able to use the radio if we lost the mast. We chose not to, on the grounds that we may then be rescued against our will - the rescue services remit is people, not boats. Probably a groundless fear, but one I picked up on this forum. (All ended well)

 

[Tranona]

No comeback. Search for Hot Liquid Sailing and Liquid Vortex and you come to the conclusion it's impossible to get a successful prosecution against skippers for going out in bad weather.

Yes, reading those threads will give a good idea of what various people think about the issue, some well argued from opposing viewpoints. Although the prosecution was not successful in proving a criminal offence under the terms of the Act, it was not clearcut - the case went on far longer than expected because of the arguments on both sides - and another jury might have come to a different conclusion. There is also an ongoing civil case being brought by one of the crew against the skipper, so there may still be some "comeback". I am assuming the case is still ongoing, not having heard any reports that it has been dropped.

It is important to be clear that the prosecution was brought primarily because it was a commercial operation involving a company that had a record of boats getting into trouble in bad weather. Doubt that MCA would take similar action against a private skipper in similar circumstances.

 

[sarabande]

are you referring to the loss of two rescue personnel recently ?

The USCG is authorised "to board, search, detain, arrest, and/orseize in appropriate circumstances."

I can't imagine them allowing a stateside Captain Calamity to set sail, and it is inevitable and perhaps desirable that our UK harbour authorities and other related organisations should have powers to prevent people, through their own foolishness, endangering Rescue personnel.


Establishing the criteria on which such an order might be based is a real sackful of wildcats.

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

Someone sets out knowing the weather is going to be bad and also refuses to listen to the advice of others about the conditions.
They then have to be rescued by a lifeboat or helicopter as the boat or crew are overwhelmed by the conditions.
Should there be any comeback on the skipper and if so what or do you just leave it as him being stupid?

The trouble is "bad" weather is very subjective. We all have different personal comfort zones and of course vessels vary tremendously...

I believe that a rescued Skipper should have to justify their decisions and if necessary be held accountable for any harm or risks that could have been avoided.

A professional Skipper would no doubt lose their job if their decisions were deemed to be unsound or reckless. I certainly wouldn't employ anyone who would willingly put others at risk.

Pete

 

[Ceejay]

Only if the vessel comes under MCA codes, or if the consumption of alcohol is involved, is there any chance of a prosecution, although there is no guarantee that the prosecution will succeed. My opinion is that things are best left this way and hopefully those who make wrong decisions, learn from their mistakes and gain insight that better helps future decision making.
I know of a professional mariner, a Boatmaster, who took a fast passenger vessel in to a loch, in the dark at 17 knots with 4 knots of tide behind him, and struck a well charted submerged reef. It was not a passage that he was familiar with and he had not consulted a chart prior to leaving, nor had he a passage plan. His panic stricken reaction at the time indicated that it is doubtful if he is suited to be in charge of such a vessel. The boat suffered significant damage to the stern gear but the hull was undamaged. There was no MCA or MAIB investigation, indeed I don't believe that the authorities were ever made aware, and the skipper wasn't disciplined, or even given advice. On this occasion the weather was fine, but good seamanship was sadly lacking.
CJ

 

[Nostrodamus]

I believe that a rescued Skipper should have to justify their decisions and if necessary be held accountable for any harm or risks that could have been avoided.

Pete

It is this bit... Is a normal skipper ever question or held accountable and should he be?
Getting caught out can sometimes happen but to deliberately go out in seas you know are going to cause problems for all concerned.
When this also leads to deaths of the rescuing services surely there has to be a review of the original decision of the skipper to go out and should they then be held accountable?

 

[jwilson]

The trouble is "bad" weather is very subjective. We all have different personal comfort zones and of course vessels vary tremendously... Pete

Yes, bad weather is very subjective, and boats vary in seaworthiness. Skill, knowledge and determination are an even bigger factor though. You have to push the envelope slightly occasionally, to explore what the boat can cope with, though with a Plan B in case it becomes too much. I've often set off into non-optimal weather thinking, "I'll probably turn back if it's as bad out there as it looks from the shore", to find that I ended up carrying on to the destination.

The only time I really frightened myself doing this "go out and see" was leaving a weather shore harbour, under high cliffs, in about a F7. The first mile offshore was a nice ten minute run, at which point I decided that it was all getting a bit too much for a very small boat. Beating back took two hours. Learning curve.

 

[Tranona]

It is this bit... Is a normal skipper ever question or held accountable and should he be?
Getting caught out can sometimes happen but to deliberately go out in seas you know are going to cause problems for all concerned.
When this also leads to deaths of the rescuing services surely there has to be a review of the original decision of the skipper to go out and should they then be held accountable?

Depends on what you call "normal". All skippers are equal under the Merchant Shipping Acts so have the same responsibilities. However, the Act is only a statement of principles and does not define what is "good" or "bad" - it is up to the court to decide based on the evidence. Most cases are brought as a result of failure to comply with specific parts of the Col Regs or special regs like the TSS where standards are definitive.

There is a policy of light touch in the UK reflecting the freedoms we have and arguably the lack of any benefit of greater regulation. The rescue services undertake their role, whether paid or as volunteers knowing that they have no claim against those being rescued. You might argue that there is a moral obligation not to get in a position where you put other lives at risk, but not sure it is practical to define what such risks might be.

There are many examples of rescue services risking their lives to rescue somebody who has behaved in a way that many would consider stupid, such as the recent grounding off Eastbourne of the Celeste by Jerry, but you don't hear the rescue services complaining. You do however hear lots of comment, on here for example, expressing diametrically opposed views on the subject!

BTW there is no legal obligation to investigate incidents involving pleasure craft. The MAIB does have a role and will investigate incidents if a commercial vessel is also involved or if it is considered in the public interest to investigate. The objective is however to determine causes and make recommendations, not to apportion blame.

 

[Tony Cross]

Someone sets out knowing the weather is going to be bad and also refuses to listen to the advice of others about the conditions.
They then have to be rescued by a lifeboat or helicopter as the boat or crew are overwhelmed by the conditions.
Should there be any comeback on the skipper and if so what or do you just leave it as him being stupid?

Shouldn't the level of experience/competence of the skipper and crew figure in here somewhere? The only way we learn is by stretching ourselves, so it could be considered sensible to go out in conditions just a little more severe than you (and your crew) have been in (successfully) before. That's how we develop skills and experience. But the conditions someone who has been sailing in all weathers for most of their life might see as "a little more severe" might appear to you or me to be impossible, so we would be stupid to go out in them but he (or she) might not.

Who is the more stupid for example, me going out in a strong force 8 or Ellen MacArthur going out in a strong force 10? And that's rhetorical, I know the answer is me!

 

[Fergus]

At the risk of atrracting criticism I went out for a cross-channel trip knowing it would be an F8. Crew were two experienced YMs and I wanted to learn how the (well-found) boat handled over a period of time with experienced guys so if it happened to me with less experienced people I would be better equipped to be a good skipper. Yes, gear could have failed and we could may have had needed recourse to rescue but I learned a huge amount and it was one of the most exciting experiences of my life! It certainly reinforced my confidence in what my boat can handle with consequently less anxiety and (hopefully) better decision making for future passages..

(runs for cover)

 

[KellysEye]

>No comeback. Search for Hot Liquid Sailing and Liquid Vortex and you come to the conclusion it's impossible to get a successful prosecution against skippers for going out in bad weather.

The skipper has a legal duty of care to the crew but if no crew are killed there won't be a prosecution. There was one prosecution I remember when a yacht entered by the Needles in gale against tide conditions at least one crew member died after being washed overboard.

 

[Vega1447]

At the risk of atrracting criticism I went out for a cross-channel trip knowing it would be an F8. Crew were two experienced YMs and I wanted to learn how the (well-found) boat handled over a period of time with experienced guys so if it happened to me with less experienced people I would be better equipped to be a good skipper. Yes, gear could have failed and we could may have had needed recourse to rescue but I learned a huge amount and it was one of the most exciting experiences of my life! It certainly reinforced my confidence in what my boat can handle with consequently less anxiety and (hopefully) better decision making for future passages..

(runs for cover)

I can't see why anyone would criticize you?

 

[Wansworth]

After having some substantial work done to the engine of my VW van the garage did a hand over drive........I never realised a van coulkd go rouynd corners so fast and not tip over(the garagist was an ex rallye driver)Same withboats ,sailing with more experienced people can show how your boat can behave in conditions you imagined horrendous.

 

[Koeketiene]

The trouble is "bad" weather is very subjective. We all have different personal comfort zones and of course vessels vary tremendously...

+1

 

[Uricanejack]

in the UK.
We have the the right and freedom to be "stupid"
You cannot be prosecuted for stupidity , stupidity is not a crime.
Stupidity is covered by insurance.

 

[oldharry]

The debate on 'what is safe' is very relevant just now. If MCZs are to be closed for general use, at what point does an 'emergency' over ride the rules? As I have repeatedly said in BORG responses to the Government, what is perfectly safe for a young fit experienced crew may be downright dangerous for a middle aged couple in an identical boat on their annual cruise. Even then they may be perfectly safe while they are well rested and warm, while 12 hours later when they are cold, frightened, seasick and tired they are at real risk. Risk evaluation at sea depends on a great many more factors than competence and equipment, and runs on a long sliding scale with a great many variables. This I guess is why UKCG will not advise anyone whether it is 'safe' to set off in indifferent conditions, quite apart from the risk of being held liable if things did go wrong.