Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
If you fall off it'll be at slow speed, into the drink. The boat will pop up again. Everyone seems to be designing a disaster scenario.
Going aloft on a small boat
- Thread starter Reptile Smile
- Start date
bikerbill
Well-Known Member
Hi all,
I have a Hurley 20 to which I want to fit the Barton lazy jack system. There are, in general, 2 choices - drop the rig, or go aloft. I haven't quite made my mind up, but want to know my choices anyway - is there such a thing as a rig that is too insubstantial to go aloft on? And is it mine..?
Cheers
I will be doing the same with my Hurley 20 using a home made system. I thought the boat would roll when I climbed halfway up my mast to get to a twisted halyard and it was not too bad, though it was tied to the finger pontoon. Don't know if that made the difference. I think it would be safe enough to use a ladder tied to the mast to reach the spreaders. I have thought about taking my mast down, but I am not too confident if I could do this alone as the weight of the mast might be too much for me.
Reptile Smile
Well-Known Member
Thanks to all.
The ladder of course might be easiest. I don't actually have one, but a stepladder on the quayside could be a go-er.
I'm live in Bristol. The boat is in portishead, where the quayside is probably at most 10'. The mast from the waterline is, by the look of it (thanks for the sailboat data link) 27' ish from the waterline, and the spreaders seem to be 2/3rds of the way, so say 18' from waterline, so minus quayside, plus stepladder, I'm likely to be in the right territory.
Nevertheless, I'm also interested in whether it is possible - if not for this, then for future reference. Thanks for ideas.
Lastly, on the 'homemade lazy jacks' - why can't they start from the spreaders rather than riveting the mast? What diameter of line is ideal? And why not just have one line from 2/3 along the boom going over a block at the spreader back to the boom at 1/3 of the way along?
The ladder of course might be easiest. I don't actually have one, but a stepladder on the quayside could be a go-er.
I'm live in Bristol. The boat is in portishead, where the quayside is probably at most 10'. The mast from the waterline is, by the look of it (thanks for the sailboat data link) 27' ish from the waterline, and the spreaders seem to be 2/3rds of the way, so say 18' from waterline, so minus quayside, plus stepladder, I'm likely to be in the right territory.
Nevertheless, I'm also interested in whether it is possible - if not for this, then for future reference. Thanks for ideas.
Lastly, on the 'homemade lazy jacks' - why can't they start from the spreaders rather than riveting the mast? What diameter of line is ideal? And why not just have one line from 2/3 along the boom going over a block at the spreader back to the boom at 1/3 of the way along?
bikerbill
Well-Known Member
I have thought about riveting a block to either side of the mast about halfway between the tabernacle and the spreaders , but I'm sure someone on here mentioned attaching blocks to the spreaders to stop chaffing. I would imagine that 6mm line should be ok but happy to be corrected.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
The physics of the ladder are also significantly different, because your weight is applied where you are and not at the top of the mast, as the case when using a halliard.
jdc
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you are correct about the second bit.
The sideways, ie heeling, moment when hauled up the mast is not applied at the top of the mast but where you are holding on. Normally that's the height at which you are working: imagine if a heel starts, what are you going to do? I think hold on to the mast rather than let yourself swing out willy-nilly.
As for a ladder, it's almost certainly much more dangerous and imho, quite pointless as well.
- If you have it entirely aboard (ie base on deck and top leaning against the mast) it achieves nothing as you will simply be at the height you are but probably already offset laterally which is a bit worse than being centred.
- If its base is on the pontoon or quay and the top of the ladder leans against the mast you are exerting a sideways push on the mast by just as much as if the mast were already tilted by the angle of the ladder, which is worse again. And of course this means any problem with the boat heeling results not in the harmless scenario described by LakeSailor but probably a 20' fall onto deck or concrete.
Also why do people trust ladders more than masts? Ladders have two 'poles' of thin walled Aluminium, rectangular in x-section about 25 x 70 mm. The mast on the other hand is round or oval x-section, with a much thicker wall reinforced and strain-relieved at sharp points and maybe 80 - 90mm dia. It will be many times stronger than the most robust ladder! As for strength of sheaves or halyards, if you don't trust them to take a few hundred Kg then take the mast down NOW and replace all the rigging else you will be disabled or dismasted next time you go out sailing - forces under sail are many times the weight of a human.
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langstonelayabout
Well-Known Member
As an ex E-Boat owner, I must say you're a brave man to have been up the mast!
I'd have lowered the mast myself, having raised and lowered my E-Boat mast several times using a few pieces of rope, a halyard, block and tackle and the spinnaker pole. It'd make the work on the mast solo much easier.
Davegriff
Well-Known Member
Why would a ladder, set up ahead or behind the mast, be in anyway offset laterally?
Lakey, myself and others here have actually used ladders. Why do the theorists seem to think its not possible? More usefully, has anyone here tried a ladder and actually had a bad experience?
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
For planned maintenance like that, dropping the mast would be the simplest way to do the job.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
A friend broke his squib mast by parking it alongside the wall at lowestoft. He wanted to retrieve the spinny halliard
As he pulled the mast towards him the self righting of the keel did the opposite & the mast broke
Unfortunately he had borrowed the squib for the weekend & the owner was not amused
(So to JDC's post i suggest he is not necessarily correct about strength of mast)
Some of our squibbers use ladders on the moorings in calm weather to get up to the spreaders. Non have fell in yet ( or if they have they have not admitted it!!!)
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
This is why I would never, ever use a masthead line to heel a boat while drying out alongside a harbour wall.
Davegriff
Well-Known Member
For overall maintainence I'd whole-heartedly agree, and its a reasonably easy job using a gin pole on my 29' mast.
But the OP only wants to install lazyjacks. Not worth all the faff of having to set up the rigging again, given the OP even knows how to do it himself, (which he may).
doug748
Well-Known Member
"For overall maintainence I'd whole-heartedly agree, and its a reasonably easy job using a gin pole on my 29' mast."
One of the really nice things about small boats is the ease with which the mast can be dropped. I think the Hurley has a tabernackle which makes it a one man job, you only need to undo the forestay and fwd lowers.
PS!
I have just re-read this and it sounds as if I am suggesting - just undo the rigging and go for it - I am not :nonchalance:
You need to think carefully about lowering away under control and a second person will make if far easier.
One of the really nice things about small boats is the ease with which the mast can be dropped. I think the Hurley has a tabernackle which makes it a one man job, you only need to undo the forestay and fwd lowers.
PS!
I have just re-read this and it sounds as if I am suggesting - just undo the rigging and go for it - I am not :nonchalance:
You need to think carefully about lowering away under control and a second person will make if far easier.
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l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Squibs are rigged with slack stays for sailing. I would tighten them before putting any unusual stress on the mast.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I can confirm that it is possible for someone weighing at least 8.5 stones to be hauled to the VERY top of the mast on a bilge keel Hurley 20 with standard rig. So def. possible as long as person isn't too heavy and boat doesn't have an oversized racing rig (not exactly likely with a Hurley 20, is it?). I did this many years ago and my weight has always been between 8.5-9.0 st. and was probably somewhere in the middle when I went up the mast.
I didn't do any calcs. but did check stability on way up by stopping every 5-6 feet and swinging my self away from the mast and then getting my wife to move to the side deck. No problems as far as I remember and I don't remember the boat doing much more than heel a little and then stabilise. Even if I'm wearing rose-tinted specs. it's easy to use the same technique to test stability. i.e. Check how far the boat heels at intervals and abandon as soon as you feel at all unsafe.
I doubt a 9st. person would have problems at spreader level.
Having said that, I did run into problems once I'd reached the top
It was our first keel boat and my wife was able to discover exactly what a riding turn was just as she'd pulled the halyard thimble right into the sheave at the masthead. A large friend was able to help by use of brute force to stretch the halyard and I was able to get down again.
However, my careful testing on the way up became completely irrelevant once he grabbed the rigging and boarded amidships. That was def. NOT a good idea but he managed to get to the centreline in time to stop a nice slow swing to port accelerating into something more dangerous. Oh the carefree, perceived invulnerability of youth.
I didn't do any calcs. but did check stability on way up by stopping every 5-6 feet and swinging my self away from the mast and then getting my wife to move to the side deck. No problems as far as I remember and I don't remember the boat doing much more than heel a little and then stabilise. Even if I'm wearing rose-tinted specs. it's easy to use the same technique to test stability. i.e. Check how far the boat heels at intervals and abandon as soon as you feel at all unsafe.
I doubt a 9st. person would have problems at spreader level.
Having said that, I did run into problems once I'd reached the top
It was our first keel boat and my wife was able to discover exactly what a riding turn was just as she'd pulled the halyard thimble right into the sheave at the masthead. A large friend was able to help by use of brute force to stretch the halyard and I was able to get down again.
However, my careful testing on the way up became completely irrelevant once he grabbed the rigging and boarded amidships. That was def. NOT a good idea but he managed to get to the centreline in time to stop a nice slow swing to port accelerating into something more dangerous. Oh the carefree, perceived invulnerability of youth.
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PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
I had a vivacity 20 a few years back and lowered the mast myself(it's a bilge keel and was ashore at the time). It had a tabernackle so fitted a block and tackle to the forestay - I used the mainsheet - one person on the forestay, one person standing on the coachroof to ctach the mast and a person on each shroud to steady the mast. Also fitted a temporary wooden 'boom' from the forestay to the mast base (to maintain the foretriangle) - make sure it's a windless day. Good Luck!
Thistle
Well-Known Member
I did something like that on a 23' boat. With hindsight I'd have saved on the blocks and simply used stainless rings instead.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Baffles me. On the thread about enlarging a hole for a pin a theorist introduced insurance, warranty and all kinds of problems to thwart a simple mechanical solution.
I am beginning to think that these forums are a retirement home for HSE Officers.
ctva
Well-Known Member
When dropping the sail, if the lazy jacks are too low / too low an angle then the sail will flop over them rather than between them which is why it starts from about 3/2 up the mast. Cord diameter is 3 - 4 mm I think.
If you pm me your email I'll see if I can dig out a pic or two.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
When dropping the mast remember to have something to rest it on ready before you start. I used two wooden poles bolted together and crossed at the stern. I tried pulling a halyard from the pontoon on mine and it was trivially easy to pull the boat over so decided against going up but I have no doubt it would work if the boat didn't tip too far.
I agree with others about the Barton system too, it's very expensive and over engineered. For a 20 footer you don't really need blocks halfway just tie a loop in the cord and feed the other through it. I did attach blocks to the mast 2/3 up though.
I agree with others about the Barton system too, it's very expensive and over engineered. For a 20 footer you don't really need blocks halfway just tie a loop in the cord and feed the other through it. I did attach blocks to the mast 2/3 up though.