glue/veneer question

Elessar

Elessar

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I'm re veneering the inside of my boat in oak (there is a thread about my project boat in the mobo forum, but this is a very PBO question :))

Had the first try today. A drawer front.

As you can see, it has flat sides but a rounded top and bottom. The oak is alonside. It is beautiful and smells wonderful :)
It originally had a plastic type wood that someone has painted. You can see why it has to go!
photo1.jpg


I veneered the sides and trimmed it. I sanded the drawer front for a key.
photo2-1.jpg


I am using evo stik contact adhesive.

I did the "thin film" as described on the evo stick instuctions on the oak. It soaked it up immediately and required more.

The drawer front is non porous and took far less glue. I really did do a thin film, having wet all surfaces and dragged the glue off to leave no ridges, but I am confident there was complete coverage.

It all dried quickly.

I pressed them together, but cannot get the curved edges to bond, it's tacky but it springs back off.

Any ideas?

More glue and longer tacking off time maybe? Is there a guide for how thick a "thin film" is?

BTW once the veneering is complete it will all be sprayed for a fine finish.

Thank you.
 
I suspect a couple of things are working against you: fairly tight curve and the grain of the veneer is the wrong way for the tight curve (but right for looks).

If I was tackling that job I would cut off the radius part, veneer the flat and then biscuit joint and glue some suitable shaped oak quadrant in place of those curved edges.

You could try steaming the veneer perhaps with a wall paper striper but would then need to hold it in place while it drys sufficiently to use the impact adhesive.

Another alternative would be to make a female mould to enable the veneer to be clamp in place whilst a stronger adhesive is used?

Good luck with it.
 
stav said:
I suspect a couple of things are working against you: fairly tight curve and the grain of the veneer is the wrong way for the tight curve (but right for looks).

If I was tackling that job I would cut off the radius part, veneer the flat and then biscuit joint and glue some suitable shaped oak quadrant in place of those curved edges.

You could try steaming the veneer perhaps with a wall paper striper but would then need to hold it in place while it drys sufficiently to use the impact adhesive.

Another alternative would be to make a female mould to enable the veneer to be clamp in place whilst a stronger adhesive is used?

Good luck with it.
Click to expand...

What an excellent, informative reply. Thank you.

2 brilliant ideas, the quadrant and the clamp.

It also made me think, would it look terrible if the drawer grain was horizontal?

Certainly the overhead lockers on the forward cabin (8 of them) will get horizontal grain and save hassle. I hadn't considered this.

So I only have 4 drawers in the aft cabin to worry about of which the picture is one, everything else is square edged.

I was considering replacing the drawer front with square edged! You've given me much better ideas.
 
Evostik 'creeps' under load and I think the peeling forces of your edges will always exceed this limit.

You either need a hard setting glue (which don't tend to be 'contact' adhesives so you will have clamping issues) or do as Stav recommends. If you were to clamp, then probably a vacuum bag would be the only viable option.
 
TimBennet said:
Evostik 'creeps' under load and I think the peeling forces of your edges will always exceed this limit.

You either need a hard setting glue (which don't tend to be 'contact' adhesives so you will have clamping issues) or do as Stav recommends. If you were to clamp, then probably a vacuum bag would be the only viable option.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I considered vac bagging but i'd need to trim the veneer edges first to do this and I can't see how to trim the edges until the glue is set.

What non creep glue is recommended?
 
If you sit the door front on exactly the same size piece of mdf (with brown parcel tape where it may get 'glued'), hold it in place with a little bit of double sided tape, the veneer will fold down over this as well. You might have to use a strip of 'shaped' waste wood along the sides as well, similarly covered in parcel tape.

Then some bubble wrap on the top, a little underneath, pop it in a large polythene bag and gently start the vacuum. As the bag pulls down, work the edges of the veneer round the curves. I'm sure places like Axminster Tools have vacuum stuff suitable for veneering, as apposed to big boatyard stuff. A vacuum cleaner is powerful enough but the motors tend to overheat when left running as the glue dries.

Traditionally, you use PVA glues with veneer and an exterior waterproof version might be worth considering. I would also have thought a meticulous smear of PU glue on the door and a spray mist of water on the veneer would be worth trying.
 
I see Axminster do a book / DVD about vacuuming veneers and a pump that seems to run of a small workshop compressor.

You would seem to have enough to do to make it worth finding a technique that gives you exactly the result you desire.
 
Like a lot of commercially produced boat furniture, your original doors are the product of a "Hot moulding" process, in that the veneer was pressed onto the yoke, probably MDF or chipboard under heat, in a mould to get the radiused edges and held there until it cooled. Of course the grain curving over the surface like that fools no-one because natural wood just doesn't behave like that. Also, impact adhesive is NOT for sticking veneers to solid wood anyway and apart from looking amateurish, will fail in the damp marine environment. Professional woodworkers would use a resin glue like Cascamite or araldite (slow setting type).

To re-finish your doors, I would take the route suggested by others and find a suitable profile to make framed doors preferrably onto a plywood core. You could attempt to cut off the bull noses from the existing doors but if these are MDF or composite, getting a really hard edge will be difficult with home tools. If you can find a profile moulding which incorporates a small lip to cover the join, all the better and if it is appropriate to your interior design, you can take the moulding all the way round the doors rather than just top and bottom, this would look even better, especially if you make a good job of the corner mitres.

Good Luck!
 
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I have just completed a veneering project; not with oak but with sapelle. Before starting I tried different glues. I found that impact adhesive crept and Collano Semparoc that I was using for the rest of the project soaked through the veneer. In the end I used unibond exterior grab adhesive for the veneer. This was thick enough not to soak through and gave a good bond to the plywood substrate with no apparent creep.

My curves were not as extreme as yours, however I held the veneer down around corners with parcel tape until glue was dry. Most useful tool was a hard rubber roller to evenly press veneer down onto the glued plywood.
 
I use a selection of old inner tubes and with a bit of thought, can usually find a way to put pressure onto a glued joint. One advantage is that a perfect vacuum can only achieve 14 psi.

Making a steering wheel a few years ago I pumped until the cracking noise stopped. 50psi! I did worry that it might have squeezed too much glue out, but it was fine.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
Like a lot of commercially produced boat furniture, your original doors are the product of a "Hot moulding" process, in that the veneer was pressed onto the yoke, probably MDF or chipboard under heat, in a mould to get the radiused edges and held there until it cooled. Of course the grain curving over the surface like that fools no-one because natural wood just doesn't behave like that. Also, impact adhesive is NOT for sticking veneers to solid wood anyway and apart from looking amateurish, will fail in the damp marine environment. Professional woodworkers would use a resin glue like Cascamite or araldite (slow setting type).

To re-finish your doors, I would take the route suggested by others and find a suitable profile to make framed doors preferrably onto a plywood core. You could attempt to cut off the bull noses from the existing doors but if these are MDF or composite, getting a really hard edge will be difficult with home tools. If you can find a profile moulding which incorporates a small lip to cover the join, all the better and if it is appropriate to your interior design, you can take the moulding all the way round the doors rather than just top and bottom, this would look even better, especially if you make a good job of the corner mitres.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Thank Steve (and all) .

i have just carried 4 doors and 4 drawer fronts home. They are all very solid plywood.
 
OK I have read, digested and really appreciated all this really helpful input.

I've decided to go horizontal grain on the drawer fronts and not put a molding on. The only drawers are in the aft cabin, and if I really want to I can retro fit the molding. I am wanting to get the cabin back together.

I take the point of going all horizotal grain and I agree i like it. However for the door it would mean a join in the veneer which comes in 8'x4' sheets. I.m not confident of an invisible join.

So it will be horizontal on the drawers and the overhead lockers in the forward cabin. With vertical on everything else.

And whoever said it was a big job, the tally is:

doors full height 11
cupboard doors 1/2 height 4
drawers/overhead lockers with curve 12
drawer no curve 1

all the above can come out of the boat to do. Theres a bit to do in situ but not much.

It all now seems a bit daunting.

Will keep you updated of progress.

Thanks again.
 
And my twopennorth on adhesives. I was told that pva wouldn't work in vacuum bags as sets at least partially by evaporation of the water base. Never tested it though as the cabinet maker who told me was right about everything else.
 
Just read this. My two veneers worth.
I think a mix and match using horizontal on the panel front but vertical grain from say 3mm away from the curve would work well and add gravitas aka proper solid joinery to the finished article.
If this appeals, I would go as follows.
Veneer cuts really well with a snap off knife and a steel rule, starting with light strokes to establish a straight cut that overrides any grain irregularities. So. Glue the front panel cut a tad overwidth and clamp it using a slab of plywood and four/six clamps. When dry, trim the veneer's edges with knife, peel away the excess.
Now set about glueing the two edge vertical pieces, starting with where they abut the front glued veneered piece. Use masking tape or duct tape to ensure no creep, reattach the clamp plate ( slab of plywood) to ensure the edges press down and stay down, then simply wrap the veneer around the radius of the edges, again, tape em in place and leave to dry.

I once built a bed from the auctioned off head and tailboard from Kaiser Wilhelms old yacht, Meteor, which had been designed to be stowed away flat for racing, hence the bed sides etc had 'gone' over the years. All done in tulip wood, did look pretty good when done,( not for me:rolleyes:)
 
Why not use oak faced ply?

Even on flat surfaces its difficult to apply veneer without getting any airbubbles trapped under it.

I realise that its probably too late if you have already bought the veneer, but it would perhaps be a lot quicker/easier to use oak faced ply in the right thickness and re-make the drawer fronts. Then all you need to do is the edges with either iron-on edging or (better still) by gluing on a suitable oak edge moulding (with nice mitered corners as mentioned previously).
Best of luck.
 
Mark G said:
Even on flat surfaces its difficult to apply veneer without getting any airbubbles trapped under it.

I realise that its probably too late if you have already bought the veneer, but it would perhaps be a lot quicker/easier to use oak faced ply in the right thickness and re-make the drawer fronts. Then all you need to do is the edges with either iron-on edging or (better still) by gluing on a suitable oak edge moulding (with nice mitered corners as mentioned previously).
Best of luck.
Click to expand...

it's not just drawer fronts it's every bit of wood in the boat........
 
As preconised by Stav, IMHO, the best way would be to rout out the edges of your drawers faces and biscuit joint (or tongue groove) solid mitred mouldings with for effect to have a "credible" cabinet built (it is details, noticable by connoisseurs or even non connaisseurs that make a difference...the eye sees long grain when your brain "knows" there should be end grain...) This way, you add strength, durability, credibility, (ok, a little weight too!) to your work but more than that, you make your life much more easy and save time... I doubt that you will glue (not being a pro and not having the proper tools) your expensive veneer lenghtwise without it splitting in the process...
Good luck anyway.
 
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