stevebirch2002
Well-Known Member
ooopppss sorry. It is a bit boaty though! As well as not telling the Police, RYA etc etc DONT TELL KIM!!
Genuine Boaty Dilemma
- Thread starter claymore
- Start date
boatmike
Well-Known Member
If this really is a serious question the answer is not entirely straightforward.
Firstly there is no LAW about burgees so theoretically you can leave them up but etiquette says you take them down when not on the vessel. There is no problem therefore in taking them down before shipping the ensign or afterwards as the ensign does not always have to be worn at sea.
Wearing an ensign is required of all registered vessels over 50 tons under the 1894 act. To be more correct such a registered vessel must have the Red Ensign ABOARD. The Red Ensign is the only correct Ensign for a British registered vessel unless entitled to wear the blue or white and even then a special warrant must be carried on board to show entitlement.
A ship belonging to a British subject shall hoist the proper colours when entering or leaving any foreign port or on a signal made by one of HM ships. However Section 9 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1983 exempts those on the Small Ships Register from section 74 of the 1894 act which requires ships of 50 tons or more to show proper national colours when entering or leaving any British port. Therefore you only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one. Everything else is optional.
As far as the blue and White Ensigns (Warranted Ensigns) are concerned, such a warrant is only valid when the person to whom the warrant is issued is aboard. Therefore it has become customary to take down the ensign when he/she is not on board. This has lead to generally accepted etiquette that an ensign (even the red) is not flown when there is no one aboard the vessel. It is also etiquette to take down the ensign at sunset and hoist again at sunrise although there is no law that says you must and who wants to get up that early anyway?
Phew!! You did ask!!
Firstly there is no LAW about burgees so theoretically you can leave them up but etiquette says you take them down when not on the vessel. There is no problem therefore in taking them down before shipping the ensign or afterwards as the ensign does not always have to be worn at sea.
Wearing an ensign is required of all registered vessels over 50 tons under the 1894 act. To be more correct such a registered vessel must have the Red Ensign ABOARD. The Red Ensign is the only correct Ensign for a British registered vessel unless entitled to wear the blue or white and even then a special warrant must be carried on board to show entitlement.
A ship belonging to a British subject shall hoist the proper colours when entering or leaving any foreign port or on a signal made by one of HM ships. However Section 9 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1983 exempts those on the Small Ships Register from section 74 of the 1894 act which requires ships of 50 tons or more to show proper national colours when entering or leaving any British port. Therefore you only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one. Everything else is optional.
As far as the blue and White Ensigns (Warranted Ensigns) are concerned, such a warrant is only valid when the person to whom the warrant is issued is aboard. Therefore it has become customary to take down the ensign when he/she is not on board. This has lead to generally accepted etiquette that an ensign (even the red) is not flown when there is no one aboard the vessel. It is also etiquette to take down the ensign at sunset and hoist again at sunrise although there is no law that says you must and who wants to get up that early anyway?
Phew!! You did ask!!
claymore
Well-Known Member
OK Get out of Jail Free
We were in the company of Webcam sorry Webcraft this weekend who was along in Fair Winds - the boat sailed really well and 'looked right'
Not really studied the Vega before.
Fair Winds is not a phrase you could use with Parahandy of course
We were in the company of Webcam sorry Webcraft this weekend who was along in Fair Winds - the boat sailed really well and 'looked right'
Not really studied the Vega before.
Fair Winds is not a phrase you could use with Parahandy of course
G
Guest
Guest
Not quite right!
The legislation you refer to has been replaced by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, so the rules are quite different from what you describe.
ALL British ships (which includes boats), irrespective of size or registration, must fly the appropriate ensign when:
(i) entering or leaving a FOREIGN port;
(ii) when a signal is made by any of Her Majesty's ships (including any ship under the command of a commissioned naval officer).
Ships over 50 tons must ALSO fly the appropriate ensign when entering or leaving a BRITSH port, but this last bit doesn't apply to smaller boats.
It makes no difference to all the above whether you are registered or unregistered, whether Part 1 or SSR. The only exception is for fishing vessels, which the above doesn't apply to
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The legislation you refer to has been replaced by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, so the rules are quite different from what you describe.
ALL British ships (which includes boats), irrespective of size or registration, must fly the appropriate ensign when:
(i) entering or leaving a FOREIGN port;
(ii) when a signal is made by any of Her Majesty's ships (including any ship under the command of a commissioned naval officer).
Ships over 50 tons must ALSO fly the appropriate ensign when entering or leaving a BRITSH port, but this last bit doesn't apply to smaller boats.
It makes no difference to all the above whether you are registered or unregistered, whether Part 1 or SSR. The only exception is for fishing vessels, which the above doesn't apply to
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Fill
Well-Known Member
Rules for wearing blue ensign are that you must have the burgee for that club flying, so logically ensign down first. Dunno about red.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Yes it still is!
If you read what I said again you have said nearly the same thing and the rules are not completely different as you claim. The 1995 act reinforced the previous ruling but you ARE correct that it drops reference to the SSR as the important thing is (and always was) to be under 50 tons.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said and I can see that my post could have been misunderstood. Having read it through again I am still saying the same as you. Obviously vessels OVER 50 tons have to comply with the full act. Vessels UNDER 50 tons (SSR registered or not) only have to hoist colours when entering and leaving FOREIGN ports not BRITISH Ports.
The misunderstanding was caused by my vague use of English.
I said
You only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one.
It would have been clearer if I had said "If you are under 50 tons and SSR registered, you NEED to hoist when entering a foregn port, but not necessarily a British one.
Then the only correction that the 1995 act introduces is the sentence should read If you are under 50 tons regardless of SSR registry.......... Otherwise nothing has changed.
But thank you for bringing me up to date, even if it does not make any practical difference. I was unaware that the 1983 act had been superceded.
If you read what I said again you have said nearly the same thing and the rules are not completely different as you claim. The 1995 act reinforced the previous ruling but you ARE correct that it drops reference to the SSR as the important thing is (and always was) to be under 50 tons.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said and I can see that my post could have been misunderstood. Having read it through again I am still saying the same as you. Obviously vessels OVER 50 tons have to comply with the full act. Vessels UNDER 50 tons (SSR registered or not) only have to hoist colours when entering and leaving FOREIGN ports not BRITISH Ports.
The misunderstanding was caused by my vague use of English.
I said
You only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one.
It would have been clearer if I had said "If you are under 50 tons and SSR registered, you NEED to hoist when entering a foregn port, but not necessarily a British one.
Then the only correction that the 1995 act introduces is the sentence should read If you are under 50 tons regardless of SSR registry.......... Otherwise nothing has changed.
But thank you for bringing me up to date, even if it does not make any practical difference. I was unaware that the 1983 act had been superceded.
jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Yes it still is!
Mike, What is the exact definition of a foreign port?
Mike, What is the exact definition of a foreign port?
boatmike
Well-Known Member
There is no rule about flying a club burgee that I know of. Where is this written? The only requirement for flying a blue ensign is that you must be able to show a warrant. Certain individuals such as retired naval officers could well have the right to wear a blue ensign but not belong to a club at all.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Foreign Ports
I take it to be any port that is outside UK national waters Jimi.
I take it to be any port that is outside UK national waters Jimi.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Re: Yes it still is!
What about my case? Boat registered in France but as the property of a foreign national and therefore wearing the Red Ensign. What is home and what is foreign?
Perplexed of Down
What about my case? Boat registered in France but as the property of a foreign national and therefore wearing the Red Ensign. What is home and what is foreign?
Perplexed of Down
jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Foreign Ports
In that case are'nt you governed by the law of the foreign country rather than the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 which is UK legislation?
In that case are'nt you governed by the law of the foreign country rather than the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 which is UK legislation?
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
What about those who paint their ensign on the wind vane?
John
John
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Good Point!
I guess if you are under 50 tons the same applies in that you HAVE to wear the duster when entering or leaving a French port even if you keep the boat there but it is optional in a British port....... I think!!
I guess if you are under 50 tons the same applies in that you HAVE to wear the duster when entering or leaving a French port even if you keep the boat there but it is optional in a British port....... I think!!
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Foreign Ports
I think the answer is he has to comply with both but I am not sure. However I believe under 50 tons the registration of the boat is not relevant although I could be corrected. Therefore a Frenchman keeping a boat in the UK would HAVE to fly a tricolour when entering and leaving port where a UK citizen can choose not to.
I think the answer is he has to comply with both but I am not sure. However I believe under 50 tons the registration of the boat is not relevant although I could be corrected. Therefore a Frenchman keeping a boat in the UK would HAVE to fly a tricolour when entering and leaving port where a UK citizen can choose not to.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Bit difficult to dip in salute
If you paint an ensign on a windvane I would have thought!
If you paint an ensign on a windvane I would have thought!
powerskipper
Well-Known Member
You know they are called dusters but has anyone really used them for that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
G
Guest
Guest
Still not there! 
[ QUOTE ]
You only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one.
It would have been clearer if I had said "If you are under 50 tons and SSR registered, you NEED to hoist when entering a foregn port, but not necessarily a British one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but your restatement of it is still wrong! For one thing SSR registration is irrelevant.
Your second para that I've quoted would be accurate if it read " ALL British ships, whether or not registered, of whatever size, need to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port. All British ships over 50 tons need to hoist when entering or leaving a British port."
[ QUOTE ]
You only NEED to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port if you are under 50 tons and SSR registered not a British one.
It would have been clearer if I had said "If you are under 50 tons and SSR registered, you NEED to hoist when entering a foregn port, but not necessarily a British one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but your restatement of it is still wrong! For one thing SSR registration is irrelevant.
Your second para that I've quoted would be accurate if it read " ALL British ships, whether or not registered, of whatever size, need to hoist when entering or leaving a foreign port. All British ships over 50 tons need to hoist when entering or leaving a British port."
tonyran
Well-Known Member
Re: Yes it still is!
Shurely if you have a French registered boat you should fly the tricouleur - foreign flag of convenience. Nationality of the master or owner is not relevant!
Shurely if you have a French registered boat you should fly the tricouleur - foreign flag of convenience. Nationality of the master or owner is not relevant!
jimi
Well-Known Member
Re: Still not there!
So the inference is that if they need to hoist then the flag should not be hoisted when at sea?
So the inference is that if they need to hoist then the flag should not be hoisted when at sea?
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Still not there!
I think before you sound off again you should read my post more thoroughly. I don't want to argue with you but I have already agreed with your point that SSR is no longer relevant and thanked you for pointing out the change in the new act.
Regardless of all that I am going to go and cook my supper now so goodnight to all my readers and .... Er..... Where did I put that corkscrew......?
I think before you sound off again you should read my post more thoroughly. I don't want to argue with you but I have already agreed with your point that SSR is no longer relevant and thanked you for pointing out the change in the new act.
Regardless of all that I am going to go and cook my supper now so goodnight to all my readers and .... Er..... Where did I put that corkscrew......?