Genset Dilemma

[RobbieW]

I have a Paguro 3000 Compact that failed earlier this year. I have reworked around the charging/mains supply on the boat and shipped the genset back to the UK as I no longer need it. Now I'm back and have been able to start investigation it looks like the parts cost to restore is around £550, it needs a new stator plus one or two other bits. Nothing terribly hard to do. The genset has c. 600 hrs on it so should have plenty of life left.

The questions are; is it worth my while spending the money and making it work again ? Whats it worth on the second hand market ? Is there a second hand market for that kit ? Do I try to sell it as is ? or just sell the motor (a Farymann 15) ?

All comments very welcome ... thanks!

 

[rogerthebodger]

You should be able to find some one to rewind the generator stator for a lot less than 550 GBP.

Some motor rewind shops can do it.

I have a Farymann based generator I made up myself by fitting a separate mains alternator.

 

[RobbieW]

You should be able to find some one to rewind the generator stator for a lot less than 550 GBP...

In this case probably not as the former and external wiring connectors for the stator got burned and damaged. I took the stator into a rewind shop this morning, thier view was that as a new stator is £400 it'd be difficult to match that for copper and labour to rewind + the damaged former.

 

[lw395]

How much is a new alternator?

 

[RobbieW]

How much is a new alternator?

That question should be 'how much was the new alternator' (& the solar panels that accompanied it)

 

[KellysEye]

>I have a Paguro 3000 Compact that failed earlier this year.

3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 400 to 600 hours, 1,000 hours max often with repairs, 1,500 rpm generators are lifed for 8,000 hours the same as yacht engines. This was told to me by Patrice in Guadeloupe when he replaced our 3,000 rpm generator, which had broken and not worth repairing, with a 1,500 rpm one. The place was littered with expired 3,000 rpm generators.

The question is do you have space for a 1,500 generator, if you do I asked Patrice and a number of other generator repair/replacement shops which generator they least had to repair the yellow jersey went to Northern lights with Westerbeke a close second. I also asked about engines the yellow jersey went to Yanmar.

 

[RobbieW]

...3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 400 to 600 hours, 1,000 hours max often with repairs...

Many problems with 3000 rpm gensets are vibration related as they tend to be smaller and single cylinder units. There was a report on here from an owner with a Paguro 3000, a close cousin to mine, with 2700 hrs on it. Yes he reported problems but, apart from the one he wrote the thread about, they were minor and fixable - even the one the thread was about was ultimately resolvable. I've had vibration type problems with the Compact which have been resolved by properly fixing components into place and replacing the rather flimsy fixings from manufacture. The current problem was a result of water leakage into the generator area that wasnt spotted in time.

...The question is do you have space for a 1,500 generator...

At the moment I dont feel the need for a genset at all. My work around was to upgrade the main engine alternator, fit a configurable alternator controller and fit some solar panels - all much easier to do where the boat was at the time than trying to fix the genset. I now have a more capable charging set up and the ability to run AC loads through the (existing) 2kw inverter; tested that with SWMBOs hairdryer which at full chat is rated at 1580watts, the alternator couldnt quite provide all the current required but not far off - she's still not allowed to use it unless we are on shore power though

 

[superheat6k]

If you do buy a replacement bear in mind that the reason many are so similar is that they are virtually the same - Paguro / VTE / Mastervolt / Fisher Panda / Westerbeke around 3-4 kVA all use the same Farymann 15W and a Volspec alternator, they just vary the outer casing.

For most users the engine will rarely get above 100 hours use. If you are going to seriously run some hours then an Onan or similar, or non generic unit from say Westerbeke, with at least 2 cylinders and as suggested 4 pole 1500 RPM alternator speed.

 

[Jabs]

I am horrified that something costing maybe £4000 installed, or more lasts 400 hours. That's ten quid an hour, plus fuel!
Or three quid a kilowatt hour.

I realise that a small engine running balls out isn't going to last forever but what failure modes are we talking about?

Is it a case where a DC generator with a load related speed control via an inverter would stand a better chance? My Honda petrol inverter is years old and has done loads of hours without missing a beat.

Or are we just shrugging our shoulders and accepting a product which isn't fit for purpose?

What is your experience?

Tony

 

[geem]

My 3000 rpm generator has 1835 hours on it. the engine is a perkins 2 cylinder 10hp unit. I don't know who's alternator it is. it hasn't been without problems but it still works. my long term plan is to use the engine to drive the watermaker pump directly via an electromagnetic clutch and permanently drive a large alternator. the alternator will allow me to run my 3000w inverter to heat hot water via the immersion heater. I intend to do all this at 1500 rpm. better fuel economy, less noise and longer engine life. There is enough grunt from the Perkins at 1500 rpm to run the watermaker and alternator with spare hp

 

[RobbieW]

I am horrified that something costing maybe £4000 installed, or more lasts 400 hours....

I wonder about that sort of number too, I dont doubt KellysEye's experience above but do wonder what lies behind those stories. In principle the base engine, usually a Farymann 1/2 cylinder, is robust with a good life expectancy. The generator part is either an adapted alternator or a more bespoke generator design - in the Paguro compact the electrics are fixed, its the permanent magnet rotor that spins giving it the compact design. Again no particular reason for early failure, alternators arent usually noted for short lives unless overstressed. Its possible that the 3000 rpm gensets are run hard which shortens the life because owners underspecify.

What I think probably underlies early failures is that the vibration inherent in small engines, particularly single cylinder, stresses all component fixtures around the engine. I'd agree that the Paguro engine mounted control box uses some very poor fixings for its components, that usually shows up very early, <200hrs, and is easily fixable by the competent liveaboard boat owner. Certainly did that with mine and had no trouble with that part since.

So I wonder if the heap of small gensets on a Caribbean island represents underskilled owners who have boats fitted out then set out on long trips without enough understanding of the systems (and their maintenance) they have installed. You hear similar stories of folk in Las Palmas trying to get watermakers, satphone hookups, autopilots, SSB etc etc working before setting off across the pond.

 

[rogerthebodger]

One of the thinks that concerns me about my Farymann is that it is raw water cooled and in some cases the alternator is also raw water cooled which with the typical aluminium case of most alternators would cause a short life due to salt water corrosion.

My farymann even the main body is cast iron has suffered some corrosion. In fact I have a second farymann where the cast iron barrel has corroded to such an extent that it need replacing. I am considering fabricating a new barrel from stainless with cast iron cylinder liner.

Don't know if yours or any of the other small gen sets have indirect cooling which of cause would make then more costly but longer lived.

 

[Jabs]

I believe there is a small, 3000w machine that is indirectly cooled.

So why are the vibration sensitive electronics inside the case?

I had initially rejected a Paguro with remote electronics as a pain. Perhaps it makes a lot of sense.

Maybe also mounting is important?? Better flex mounts holding a frame which holds the genet?

I remember how my GM10 used to jump around!

Are we doing the development that the manufacturer should and would be doing in any other industry?

Is Microsoft involved, perchance?

Tony.

 

[DaiB]

Re Gensets

Quote ""3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 400 to 600 hours, 1,000 hours max often with repairs, 1,500 rpm generators are lifed for 8,000 hours the same as yacht engines.""

Below extracted from the web,

"""Gensets can therefore be split into two broad categ
ories: those running at 3000rpm and those
running at 1500rpm.
The main differences:
- Service life of a 1500rpm genset will be longer.
1500rpm gensets have a service life of up to
10.000hrs (2,5 years continuous use), whereas 3000r
pm gensets will last up to 5000hrs
(1,5 years continuous use). Small 3000rpm gensets w
ith a one cylinder engine have a
shorter service life.
For comparison:
A car diesel engine will do up to 500.000 km at an
average speed of
75km/hour; this equates to 6.600hrs.
- Typically, a 1500rpm genset will be less noisy.
- For a given power output, fuel consumption of a 1
500rpm genset will be slightly lower.
- For a given rated output, a 3000rpm genset will b
e smaller and lighter.
- On average, 3000rpm gensets have a lower purchase
price."""

Would have thought these figures more reasonable, 500 hours on a 3000RPM machine is only 21 days running!!!

Besides this I would have thought that the life of an engine ends when it has failed and requires repair and either

1. Spares not available
2. Spares plus labour equal or exceed new cost.


Quote ""The place was littered with expired 3,000 rpm generators. ""

There could be a bit of self interest here if the workshop is supplying and fitting new sets.

Quote "" if you do I asked Patrice and a number of other generator repair/replacement shops which generator they least had to repair the yellow jersey went to Northern lights with Westerbeke a close second.""

The one you need is the ones they have not had to repair so are not included above!