Generator recommendations for Phantom 40

rafiki_ said:
We have a Kohler on the Azi. Great bit of kit, quiet easy starting, and tucked nicely out of the way in th lazerette. I think it uses one of their own engines, but not 100% sure.
The Hardy next to us has a Fisher Panda. The gennie part has recently seized as it has alu cooling pipes, which have rotted away! Barking. Similar units from FP as stating for freshwater use only. Someone should have mentioned this to Hardy 10 years ago! The whole unit has to come out of the boat, which is a nightmare, as the upper structure was fitted in build, after the engines/gennie were mounted.
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Picking up on FP they are small v compact , and with that packaging comes what's called a "water connection block " .Two version Al for sea , Mg for fresh .
The water runs through the this ,the Geny bit ,and the engine to cool it all .
It's shows signs of "change me ASAP " with a bloom -they last a few years and should be changed .
( a bit like a cam belt on a vauxhall or something at 60-70 ,000 miles -you may want to follow reccomended change interval ----or not= BANG )
Sounds like usual lack of maintenance --and /or. The builder squeezing the poor thing into a too tight space ( on a small boat -not much choice really ) with the block in an impossible position for owner to change without taking the whole thing -Geny out .-Thx Mr Boat Builder :)
While we are on the subject of "Barking "
Have a look at small Mase Geny ,s ----erh they are air cooled -yup no water ever gets near the Yanmar 1gm or windings -never will corrode .
They have a mini radiator cum heat exchanger that cools the air via the water pump .
This cost peanuts to change out if if ever needs -anode protected .
So in my view Kolher / Onan and other water cooled -- etc are "Barking " For running sea water round the engine and windings -yeh great idea !

It's all realitve :) -engineering Madness :cool:
 
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Portofino said:
Picking up on FP they are small v compact , and with that packaging comes what's called a "water connection block " .Two version Al for sea , Mg for fresh .
The water runs through the this ,the Geny bit ,and the engine to cool it all .
It's shows signs of "change me ASAP " with a bloom -they last a few years and should be changed .
( a bit like a cam belt on a vauxhall or something at 60-70 ,000 miles -you may want to follow reccomended change interval ----or not= BANG )
Sounds like usual lack of maintenance --and /or. The builder squeezing the poor thing into a too tight space ( on a small boat -not much choice really ) with the block in an impossible position for owner to change without taking the whole thing -Geny out .-Thx Mr Boat Builder :)
While we are on the subject of "Barking "
Have a look at small Mase Geny ,s ----erh they are air cooled -yup no water ever gets near the Yanmar 1gm or windings -never will corrode .
They have a mini radiator cum heat exchanger that cools the air via the water pump .
This cost peanuts to change out if if ever needs -anode protected .
So in my view Kolher / Onan and other water cooled -- etc are "Barking " For running sea water round the engine and windings -yeh great idea !

It's all realitve :) -engineering Madness :cool:
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Umm. A bit harsh if I may say so. My neighbour is pretty conciencious about maintenance, and has been in and around boats, professionally, and for pleasure for many years. He does most of his own maintenance, and from what I can see, is pretty good at it. However, he was unaware of the aluminium culprits, which clearly, should be serviceable items. Poor design IMHO.
 
rafiki_ said:
Umm. A bit harsh if I may say so. My neighbour is pretty conciencious about maintenance, and has been in and around boats, professionally, and for pleasure for many years. He does most of his own maintenance, and from what I can see, is pretty good at it. However, he was unaware of the aluminium culprits, which clearly, should be serviceable items. Poor design IMHO.
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The hand book / owner manual details when and how to change the water connection block that acts as the anode for it all. £130 last time I did one .It also details the install and shows pic with red cross through of how not to install .
If you don,t change em they bloom -blow like any Al and break the seal and leak -- presenting in engine overheat or if viewable water leak .
It's not poor design it's compact lightwieght design but at a compromise .
Troube is small boat makers home in on them for this very reason -compactness -and may install with the block facing the hull or a bulkhead -in which case it's impossible to change in situ .
Farryman engine .
The water outlet is high up on the exhaust manifold ,it's not Stainless steel ,just cast metal ( accept design fault )
This means in prolonged periods of none use ,if the E valve is open it corrodes -near sea water ,or worse still in a sail boat heeling over -water runs back into the cylinder.

Mase intercooled - is the way to go -- keeping the water away from every thing -BTW the exhaust is stainless steel as well .
 
Portofino said:
The hand book / owner manual details when and how to change the water connection block that acts as the anode for it all. £130 last time I did one .It also details the install and shows pic with red cross through of how not to install .
If you don,t change em they bloom -blow like any Al and break the seal and leak -- presenting in engine overheat or if viewable water leak .
It's not poor design it's compact lightwieght design but at a compromise .
Troube is small boat makers home in on them for this very reason -compactness -and may install with the block facing the hull or a bulkhead -in which case it's impossible to change in situ .
Farryman engine .
The water outlet is high up on the exhaust manifold ,it's not Stainless steel ,just cast metal ( accept design fault )
This means in prolonged periods of none use ,if the E valve is open it corrodes -near sea water ,or worse still in a sail boat heeling over -water runs back into the cylinder.

Mase intercooled - is the way to go -- keeping the water away from every thing -BTW the exhaust is stainless steel as well .
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I will pass your words of wisdom on
 
Portofino said:
Picking up on FP they are small v compact , and with that packaging comes what's called a "water connection block " .Two version Al for sea , Mg for fresh .
The water runs through the this ,the Geny bit ,and the engine to cool it all .
It's shows signs of "change me ASAP " with a bloom -they last a few years and should be changed .
( a bit like a cam belt on a vauxhall or something at 60-70 ,000 miles -you may want to follow reccomended change interval ----or not= BANG )
Sounds like usual lack of maintenance --and /or. The builder squeezing the poor thing into a too tight space ( on a small boat -not much choice really ) with the block in an impossible position for owner to change without taking the whole thing -Geny out .-Thx Mr Boat Builder :)
While we are on the subject of "Barking "
Have a look at small Mase Geny ,s ----erh they are air cooled -yup no water ever gets near the Yanmar 1gm or windings -never will corrode .
They have a mini radiator cum heat exchanger that cools the air via the water pump .
This cost peanuts to change out if if ever needs -anode protected .
So in my view Kolher / Onan and other water cooled -- etc are "Barking " For running sea water round the engine and windings -yeh great idea !

It's all realitve :) -engineering Madness :cool:
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I am confused as hell.....Yes I concur about FP like almost everybody in industry agrees it is junk.

No merit in Yanmar v/s Kubota (Mase v/s Onan) argument engines both first class motors, however both prime movers are surely water cooled but Yanmar 1 GM10 is raw water cooled whereas Kubota are fresh water cooled .

Moving on to Kolher/Onan having water cooled generator ends can somebody enlighten me here, always thought they were air cooled??

If perimeters are who are market leaders in tough U.S. Marine/R.V market likely Kohler/Onan have have about 70% of it on the basis of performance, price, reliability and support.

As to Italian generator ends and control gear the Mase bit vs U.S. generator ends and control gear I would always go for the more robust American designed and manufactured stuff, can the market have it so wrong, but willing to educated.
 
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Latestarter1 said:
Moving on to Kolher/Onan having water cooled generator ends can somebody enlighten me here, always thought they were air cooled??
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Fwiw, my 1995 vintage Onan 6.5 kW genset (still working just fine, touch wood) has closed circuit and heat exchanger for engine cooling, but air cooled generator end.

PS: and I'm pretty sure to have seen some bigger Onan gensets with the same setup - at least up to 20 kW or so, IIRC.
 
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Mase fit air cooled yanmar based diesel engines and air cooled the windings
They use a intercooler -the water pump is a generic Johnson belt driven off the engines
Here's a small unit -I think they do a range and convention heat exchanged closed cooled engines as you move up in size
This is about keeping sea water away from Al windings and the smaller engines
http://www.masenorthamerica.com/en/component/attachments/download/113.html
 
Highest output of the Yanmar L family of air cooled industrial engines the L100 is about 6 Kw and they bear no relationship to 1GM 10, my apologies but this is fresh water cooled not seawater as stated.

Either way little puddle jumper Japanese fresh water cooled marine diesel engines seem to do a very competent job in yacht auxiliaries, I would not call them ''Barking'' and I would agree regarding water cooled generator ends however I do not think Onan?Kohler have them.

Packaging a little air cooled industrial Yanmar single cylinder cylinder diesel engine Lanchester shafts or not with an Italian generator end and control gear does not light my fire I am afraid.
 
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Portofino said:
Here you are L70 lv -well based on the 1gm :encouragement:
And I think they ( mase ) do bigger air cooled as well as water cooled like the others .
That why I questioned "Barking " with water cooled Onan /kolher etc --- well for litte ones -often neglected ?
http://us.yanmar.com/products/industrial-engines/air-cooled/epa-certified/l-v-series/l70v/
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Kohler/Onan do not use water cooled alternators, even down in the small 4kW range they are air cooled.

Regards Anthony
 
ARE said:
Kohler/Onan do not use water cooled alternators, even down in the small 4kW range they are air cooled.

Regards Anthony
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yeh not disputed -its the engines the little one s that the point
often not used in tight installs by the v nature of the boat size = little one
therefore highly likely to be neglected = poor reputation (s)
so I,am saying there is an alternative -ie air cooled everything @ this tiny level
where the OP is ? now corroded geny -Of course on an north sea oil rig or sunseeker yacht 90 then cos they are on virtually all the time -then the neglect argument does not stack up , and the bigger engine will be water cooled .
 
To balance this up a bit so an informed choice can be made: I had an HFL 6kVA sea-water cooled genny installed below my saloon floor that has just died after 11 years use, SW entered the casing causing the windings to blow, but I suspect not from the heat exchanger.

It's surprisingly quiet when in operation, when you consider the amount of heat that can be removed via a water heat exchanger when compared to the volume/noise of air moving to dissipate the same amount of heat, I can see why this would be a beneficial choice on a 40ft boat.

Most boats have sea-water moving AC and engines so a similar maintenance regime is all that's required. If I had a larger boat and more space an air-cooled might be a better option. I suppose you could also argue (very weakly) that large amounts of air needs to be moved via an air-cooled genny enclosure which might fan a fire! Easily sorted I know.
 
Portofino said:
yeh not disputed -its the engines the little one s that the point
often not used in tight installs by the v nature of the boat size = little one
therefore highly likely to be neglected = poor reputation (s)
so I,am saying there is an alternative -ie air cooled everything @ this tiny level
where the OP is ? now corroded geny -Of course on an north sea oil rig or sunseeker yacht 90 then cos they are on virtually all the time -then the neglect argument does not stack up , and the bigger engine will be water cooled .
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The problem with air cooling is that you need airflow to keep the thing cool and to get air in and out of a generator sound enclosure you need large vents. Vents let sound out of the enclosure and the generator is noisy compared to water cooled units.

Anthony
 
ARE said:
The problem with air cooling is that you need airflow to keep the thing cool and to get air in and out of a generator sound enclosure you need large vents. Vents let sound out of the enclosure and the generator is noisy compared to water cooled units.

Anthony
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Aaargh I give up --- "intercooler" cools the air - inside - the box is sealed /soundproofed .
No holes or vents .or wafting air about from outside .
"intercooler " looks like a car radiator with a fan ,instead of getting rid of engine heat to the passing air at the front of a car With this ---- sea water cools the air as the fan recirculates it -in it's box to the fins on the air cooled diesel engine and air cooled Geny windings ---Got it .
sure it's got an easy change out anode and like a car rad costs peanuts in relation to the whole engine if you ever need to replace .
It means you can put the Geny in a hot E room ,cos the intercooler cools the inside of the sound box anyhow ,so could be in 90 degrees outside -
Early 911' pre 996 circa 1998 were all air cooled = legendary reliability -no water jacket ,I,ll go further no head gasket -yup
The block and the head were just exactley machined flat and bolted together .
VW Beatle engines -ring a bell anybody ?:)Ferdinand Porsche was no mug re engine design

Little genys in sub 40 ft boats are usually neglected cos of poor access and /or - lack of use .

In reverse order of reliability /longevity IMHO
1-direct raw water cooled like Fisher Panda and may others with a Farryman engine -corrode away in the seawater
2- indirect water cooled Onan /Kohler -head gaskets , water pump , thermostats , anti freeze , leaks , overheats etc
3- Aircooled engines - none of the above .

google Mase generators -look at spec section for " intercooler " .
 
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fwiw (probably nothing as the conversation has developed...)
my MASE 8KW is based on a 2cyl yanmar which is liquid cooled with a ss exhaust wet elbow and an aircooled winding section.
After a waterpump rebuilt, it works fine although it's a 3Krpm job and it IS noisy without the rotten soundproofing enclosing which I've chucked away and plan to rebuilt in a way I have access to service the thing.

cheers

V.

PS. go for a 1.5Krpm unit no matter what!
 
Portofino said:
Aaargh I give up --- "intercooler" cools the air - inside - the box is sealed /soundproofed .
No holes or vents .or wafting air about from outside .
"intercooler " looks like a car radiator with a fan ,instead of getting rid of engine heat to the passing air at the front of a car With this ---- sea water cools the air as the fan recirculates it -in it's box to the fins on the air cooled diesel engine and air cooled Geny windings ---Got it .
sure it's got an easy change out anode and like a car rad costs peanuts in relation to the whole engine if you ever need to replace .
It means you can put the Geny in a hot E room ,cos the intercooler cools the inside of the sound box anyhow ,so could be in 90 degrees outside -
Early 911' pre 996 circa 1998 were all air cooled = legendary reliability -no water jacket ,I,ll go further no head gasket -yup
The block and the head were just exactley machined flat and bolted together .
VW Beatle engines -ring a bell anybody ?:)Ferdinand Porsche was no mug re engine design

Little genys in sub 40 ft boats are usually neglected cos of poor access and /or - lack of use .

In reverse order of reliability /longevity IMHO
1-direct raw water cooled like Fisher Panda and may others with a Farryman engine -corrode away in the seawater
2- indirect water cooled Onan /Kohler -head gaskets , water pump , thermostats , anti freeze , leaks , overheats etc
3- Aircooled engines - none of the above .

google Mase generators -look at spec section for " intercooler " .
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Interesting reading: given the limited space available on say a 40ft boat to house a 6kVA genny, I would be genuinely interested to know how the air-cooled argument stacks-up regarding size/space/weight. For instance my HFL is 690 x 550 x 610 (L x W x H) and weighs in at around 149kg?
 
John100156 said:
.....I would be genuinely interested to know how the air-cooled argument stacks-up regarding size/space/weight. For instance my HFL is 690 x 550 x 610 (L x W x H) and weighs in at around 149kg?
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Looking at the Mase site: the Kubota Z482 looks interesting: 5.6kW continuous: 650 x468 x 555 (L x W x H) weighs in at 165kg, 54dB(A) at 7m, compareswell with HFL at 56dB(A)

I wonder why they quote sound power at 7m, 54 would give 60dB(A)at 3.5m and 66dB(A) at 1.75m which is about how far my HFL is from my saloon…..
 
John100156 said:

Looking at the Mase site: the Kubota Z482 looks interesting: 5.6kW continuous: 650 x468 x 555 (L x W x H) weighs in at 165kg, 54dB(A) at 7m, compareswell with HFL at 56dB(A)

I wonder why they quote sound power at 7m, 54 would give 60dB(A)at 3.5m and 66dB(A) at 1.75m which is about how far my HFL is from my saloon…..
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You all have likely noticed a certain bias regarding Italian engineering........

Having dealt with engineers at all levels at Iveco, Lobardini and V.M. over the years I learned to distrust even the printed word, if I was told it was raining by some of them ones inclination would be to look out the window...

I too looked at the Mase data sheet and initially wowed by the 54dB(A) then I saw the 7m, looking at Onan Kohler as well as other data sheets quote sound power at 1m which is also the standard for propulsion engines.

Why anybody messes with this Italian stuff when thoroughly so many decent and well regarded makes exist.
 
Yes, I know what you mean, most equipment we specify gives sound power levels at 1m - it almost looks as if manufacturers are eager to deceive when quoting more than 1m.

That said, we all realise gennies are noisy, doubling distance reduces noise generally by 6dB, it's difficult to increase distance on a small boat, which I consider my 43 to be. There is though additional attenuation provided on my boat, through floor panel(s) and of course carpet before it hits the occupants.

On a hot summer day on the hook with two AC units running, I cant say it bothers me that much. I think I would still go for a sw/water HX rather than air-cooled for a 6kVA on a 40ft boat though, but that's just my personal reference I am reasonably open minded on this.
 
mjf said:
I posted a thread on Paguro who Advanced Yacht Installations suppled and fitted a few years ago

Its very compact and quiet . I'm delighted with it and its great at anchor for recharging batteries, hot water etc and oven cooking.

very economical too it seems when I look at my refuelling history vs genset running hours from that ME fueltank
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I forgot to mention - my installation allows for a high start draw - enough for a/c to start up etc - before needing to settle down to design output before the windings on the elect side overheat. never had an issue when its running on above output sometimes when say have the oven on and water heater, battery charger putting in 50% charge etc. Albeit the red light goes off after 30/40 secs as oven element cuts out.

The point is a high load does not stall the motor it just heats the windings until I guess the safety thermo shuts everything down allowing short bursts of overload output .
 
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