A_7
New member
They have given up trying to find a Corporate sponsor for the next Americas Cup and staff are being laid off. Shame but it is a expensive game.
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GBR Challenge pull out
- Thread starter A_7
- Start date
tcm
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Yep, sorry but i thought they were a bit shoestringy last time. Someone here (bedouin) sed you had to be ok to drop £50m and harris wanted something out of it for £20m which did well, but only insofar as he got relatively good value - but not the winning thing tho.
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Cornishman
New member
This is not strictly accurate. Peter Harrison has said that he is still hopeful that some corporate body might come forward in time (I believe April 1st next year is the deadline) so that the Challenge is suspended, not abandoned.
My own personal feelings are that the America's Cup has become such a money orientated event that anybody with that sort of cash should spend it on having brain surgery rather than pouring it into a lost cause.
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My own personal feelings are that the America's Cup has become such a money orientated event that anybody with that sort of cash should spend it on having brain surgery rather than pouring it into a lost cause.
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Peppermint
New member
Re: Rob asked
Why NZ could and GB couldn't. It looks to me like NZ plc gets a staggering amount out of AC campaigns. It involves most of the nation, markedly improves the tourist industry and increases technical developments through increased R&D spending.
Even a successful AC campaign would effect little or no change on the UK economy or sailing industry. To NZ it's a big deal to UK plc it's not. Why other countries do it I'm not sure. You need a strong leader with the seed money who can suck in and manage the rest. Those guys are unlikely to stump up if they can't win. I spoke to an american guy who'd been involved with a challenge. He said it made him realise he wasn't all that rich. This was a guy who had spent years being successful in motorsport.
Some would say that the UK has already had the benefit of this attempt. Cowes is in for a major redevelopment and, for the first time, some joined up thinking is being attempted to get a base for elite sailors.
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Why NZ could and GB couldn't. It looks to me like NZ plc gets a staggering amount out of AC campaigns. It involves most of the nation, markedly improves the tourist industry and increases technical developments through increased R&D spending.
Even a successful AC campaign would effect little or no change on the UK economy or sailing industry. To NZ it's a big deal to UK plc it's not. Why other countries do it I'm not sure. You need a strong leader with the seed money who can suck in and manage the rest. Those guys are unlikely to stump up if they can't win. I spoke to an american guy who'd been involved with a challenge. He said it made him realise he wasn't all that rich. This was a guy who had spent years being successful in motorsport.
Some would say that the UK has already had the benefit of this attempt. Cowes is in for a major redevelopment and, for the first time, some joined up thinking is being attempted to get a base for elite sailors.
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Ships_Cat
New member
Re: Rob asked
While it is indeed true that NZ gets benefits from the America's Cup those are mainly in the marine industry - especially for challeges offshore rather than defenses at home (eg no tourists come to NZ to see an AC NZ challenge in Spain - kinda obvious that I guess).
But those are all side issues and have nothing to do whatsoever with the reasons NZ is involved in the AC. The people who have conceived and driven the various NZ challenges and defences did not do so for any altuistic reasons at all to advantage the nation in the above ways. They actually did it because they were driven to do so by their own interests in sailing and their competitive nature, and in the earlier challenges probably also in order to gain personal exposure internationally for their own (non marine) activities. They most certainly did not do it to increase tourism, advance R&D or any such similar thing on behalf of the country.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
While it is indeed true that NZ gets benefits from the America's Cup those are mainly in the marine industry - especially for challeges offshore rather than defenses at home (eg no tourists come to NZ to see an AC NZ challenge in Spain - kinda obvious that I guess).
But those are all side issues and have nothing to do whatsoever with the reasons NZ is involved in the AC. The people who have conceived and driven the various NZ challenges and defences did not do so for any altuistic reasons at all to advantage the nation in the above ways. They actually did it because they were driven to do so by their own interests in sailing and their competitive nature, and in the earlier challenges probably also in order to gain personal exposure internationally for their own (non marine) activities. They most certainly did not do it to increase tourism, advance R&D or any such similar thing on behalf of the country.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
bedouin
Well-known member
Re: Rob asked
To be fair, in 2003 NZ could not put on a good show either. Their defence was underfunded and badly managed, and so they did even make a good match of it.
It really is time that they addressed the rule so that it is more related to sailing (or design) skills and not purely on the amount of money the team can raise.
Unfortunately the rules are controlled by the victors, and they are hardly going to instigate changes that will make the competition more open...
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To be fair, in 2003 NZ could not put on a good show either. Their defence was underfunded and badly managed, and so they did even make a good match of it.
It really is time that they addressed the rule so that it is more related to sailing (or design) skills and not purely on the amount of money the team can raise.
Unfortunately the rules are controlled by the victors, and they are hardly going to instigate changes that will make the competition more open...
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Peppermint
New member
Re: Hear hear
Other sports have had to get hold of their costs. Even F1 is scratching around for cash. Thats why they've cut out half of the testing programmes.
Giving control of the rules to the winner is as mad an idea as you'd ever come across. It's like saying "you did so well this time we'll let you handicap all the others" Sport without a level playing field is pretty dull fare.
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Other sports have had to get hold of their costs. Even F1 is scratching around for cash. Thats why they've cut out half of the testing programmes.
Giving control of the rules to the winner is as mad an idea as you'd ever come across. It's like saying "you did so well this time we'll let you handicap all the others" Sport without a level playing field is pretty dull fare.
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A_7
New member
Apparently Richard Branson is talking to them.......
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falcon5
New member
Peter Harrision MBE???
I think its sad news that the GBR Challenge is being put on hold, I think we owe a dept of thanks to Peter Harrison for putting a sense of pride back into British yachting, not only with the AC campaign but also his Olympic support.
I know some parties will claim his actions were only for personal financial gain (how they work that out I don't know though), but when you consider some deserving people(?) who recieve awards in the UK Honours System, I strongly believe that his actions deserve reconition at national level.
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I think its sad news that the GBR Challenge is being put on hold, I think we owe a dept of thanks to Peter Harrison for putting a sense of pride back into British yachting, not only with the AC campaign but also his Olympic support.
I know some parties will claim his actions were only for personal financial gain (how they work that out I don't know though), but when you consider some deserving people(?) who recieve awards in the UK Honours System, I strongly believe that his actions deserve reconition at national level.
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falcon5
New member
Re: Peter Harrision MBE???
I have decided to repost this on its own to see what others think
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I have decided to repost this on its own to see what others think
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Peppermint
New member
Re: Thats what I said
but the benefits had a real impact despite the lack of altruism.
The same effect would not be felt here.
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but the benefits had a real impact despite the lack of altruism.
The same effect would not be felt here.
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Ships_Cat
New member
Re: Thats what I said
Yes, I certainly agree with that but mainly in the marine industry and the tidying up of downtown Auckland in the viaduct area. After all since NZ's involvement it is hard to find a YW, for example, which does not mention some feature of NZ yachting.
Also agree with Bedouin on the management, etc of the 2003 defence but there was more to it than that I think.
This is just from an outside view from here in NZ, but think has quite a bit of truth to it. Perhaps not so much bad management but the team got isolated, not necessarily through their own fault. After the 1999 election when we got a social engineering interfering government some of the wealthy people who had the contacts for encouraging big sponsorships and hard dedication just seemed to pack up and leave NZ (not just for AC, by the way as there will no longer be any opportunity for the same brewery sponsorship that Lion NZ and Steinlager had enjoyed as that company and its main driver packed their bags and moved to Australia).
Also a bunch of fairly prominant yachting management people got upset about Coutts and Butterworth leaving after the previous defence and started the "Loyal" campaign which basically was a very ill natured attack on Alinghi, Coutts and Butterworth which tended to isolate, I think, major sponsors from Team NZ - they probably just did not want any of that to rub off on them. The team itself also kept a low profile, perhaps for the same reasons, and I assume that sponsors do not like that either. So perhaps not enough money.
I don't know when first sort of ideas of NZ challenging for the AC arose, but when I was a kid in the early 1960's I can remember minor discussions taking place but not enough talent I think to carry it through. For example, at that time NZ was only just getting a profile in the international keelboat scene with Chris Bouzaid's successes in the One Ton Cup and Bruce Farr was still a teenager (but designing boats) and Holland also just getting going - both those two leading the track into the "dinghy" style race keelboats we have today and NZ's profile with those.
Probably a lot of room for a good book to be written on all those threads that led to NZ's eventual involvement in the AC and those would include the designers I mention, the other Cups (1T, 1/2T, Admirals', etc), the round the world races, the individuals, the sponsors (partularly the early keelboat ones such as Ceramco and Lion, and their CEO's Tom Clark and Douglas Myers), the encouragement of Oz's success, etc all of which were roads leading, in the end it turned out, probably without anyone realising it along the way, to the AC.
Personally I am pleased that the AC has gone to Europe as another term in the South would have done its exposure harm I think. Also feel it would be a pity if UK cannot mount a challenge on almost their home ground.
I am not sure about the expense side - often the concept of whether things are expensive or not depends on how much or how little of it one has oneself. For example, the cost of the serious international campaigning of a successful small keelboat is enough to make the eyes of most of us water but to others and to the super sponsors those costs are chicken feed - perhaps they too are entitled to have events which challenge their budgets and organising abilities enough to make their involvement in sailing of serious meaning to them.
Whoops, almost the book here /forums/images/icons/blush.gif.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Yes, I certainly agree with that but mainly in the marine industry and the tidying up of downtown Auckland in the viaduct area. After all since NZ's involvement it is hard to find a YW, for example, which does not mention some feature of NZ yachting.
Also agree with Bedouin on the management, etc of the 2003 defence but there was more to it than that I think.
This is just from an outside view from here in NZ, but think has quite a bit of truth to it. Perhaps not so much bad management but the team got isolated, not necessarily through their own fault. After the 1999 election when we got a social engineering interfering government some of the wealthy people who had the contacts for encouraging big sponsorships and hard dedication just seemed to pack up and leave NZ (not just for AC, by the way as there will no longer be any opportunity for the same brewery sponsorship that Lion NZ and Steinlager had enjoyed as that company and its main driver packed their bags and moved to Australia).
Also a bunch of fairly prominant yachting management people got upset about Coutts and Butterworth leaving after the previous defence and started the "Loyal" campaign which basically was a very ill natured attack on Alinghi, Coutts and Butterworth which tended to isolate, I think, major sponsors from Team NZ - they probably just did not want any of that to rub off on them. The team itself also kept a low profile, perhaps for the same reasons, and I assume that sponsors do not like that either. So perhaps not enough money.
I don't know when first sort of ideas of NZ challenging for the AC arose, but when I was a kid in the early 1960's I can remember minor discussions taking place but not enough talent I think to carry it through. For example, at that time NZ was only just getting a profile in the international keelboat scene with Chris Bouzaid's successes in the One Ton Cup and Bruce Farr was still a teenager (but designing boats) and Holland also just getting going - both those two leading the track into the "dinghy" style race keelboats we have today and NZ's profile with those.
Probably a lot of room for a good book to be written on all those threads that led to NZ's eventual involvement in the AC and those would include the designers I mention, the other Cups (1T, 1/2T, Admirals', etc), the round the world races, the individuals, the sponsors (partularly the early keelboat ones such as Ceramco and Lion, and their CEO's Tom Clark and Douglas Myers), the encouragement of Oz's success, etc all of which were roads leading, in the end it turned out, probably without anyone realising it along the way, to the AC.
Personally I am pleased that the AC has gone to Europe as another term in the South would have done its exposure harm I think. Also feel it would be a pity if UK cannot mount a challenge on almost their home ground.
I am not sure about the expense side - often the concept of whether things are expensive or not depends on how much or how little of it one has oneself. For example, the cost of the serious international campaigning of a successful small keelboat is enough to make the eyes of most of us water but to others and to the super sponsors those costs are chicken feed - perhaps they too are entitled to have events which challenge their budgets and organising abilities enough to make their involvement in sailing of serious meaning to them.
Whoops, almost the book here /forums/images/icons/blush.gif.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Peppermint
New member
Re: There\'s a hidden profit
Every Kiwi is now thought tp posses magical powers of sailing ability. They are, no matter how useless, yachting all over the place. I suppose it beats bar work.
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Every Kiwi is now thought tp posses magical powers of sailing ability. They are, no matter how useless, yachting all over the place. I suppose it beats bar work.
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Ships_Cat
New member
Re: There\'s a hidden profit
Yes, is a real pity that the inhabitants of all the old colonies, Asia, rest of the world in fact, and perhaps those of Wales, Scotland and Ireland too, are all so pathetic at everything when compared to the superior abilities of Englishmen.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Yes, is a real pity that the inhabitants of all the old colonies, Asia, rest of the world in fact, and perhaps those of Wales, Scotland and Ireland too, are all so pathetic at everything when compared to the superior abilities of Englishmen.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Rob_Webb
Active member
Spooky timing but I honestly had no inside info when I asked my question a few days ago!
Whilst it won't directly affect most UK sailors nor the national economy, it is a sad day for the global image of UK yachting. And also some of the local economies that would benefit from a UK campaign.
Oh well, at least being an ex-pat you can choose which is your 'home' side to support. And now that GBR Challenge has gone I can seamlessly switch to Team New Zealand - not a bad backup option methinks.
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Whilst it won't directly affect most UK sailors nor the national economy, it is a sad day for the global image of UK yachting. And also some of the local economies that would benefit from a UK campaign.
Oh well, at least being an ex-pat you can choose which is your 'home' side to support. And now that GBR Challenge has gone I can seamlessly switch to Team New Zealand - not a bad backup option methinks.
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Ships_Cat
New member
Wot, soon you will be wanting to fly a NZ Red Ensign too if you keep that support bit up /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Rob_Webb
Active member
Why does no-one in NZ fly ensigns? Haven't seen one for yonks.
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Ships_Cat
New member
I don't know Rob.
We never fly ours even though a reg ship and supposed to by law when entering or in harbour or something /forums/images/icons/blush.gif. Actually do have staff and everything including big flag plus even a littler one for when very windy - flags are in perfect condition.
Gets in the way when fishing over the stern and intentions are good - is that a good enough excuse?
Actually - am just organising some NZ flags to go to a "Royal Yacht Club of ..." overseas - maybe they will fly them more diligently than I do.
Regards
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
We never fly ours even though a reg ship and supposed to by law when entering or in harbour or something /forums/images/icons/blush.gif. Actually do have staff and everything including big flag plus even a littler one for when very windy - flags are in perfect condition.
Gets in the way when fishing over the stern and intentions are good - is that a good enough excuse?
Actually - am just organising some NZ flags to go to a "Royal Yacht Club of ..." overseas - maybe they will fly them more diligently than I do.
Regards
John
<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.
Gerry
Well-known member
Saw a couple of NZ ensigns in Gibraltar , they were complaining that their flag looked too much like the Australian ine and would rather flu the 'siver fern'
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Rob_Webb
Active member
I agree. As an 'outsider' I reckon that the NZ flag would look far more noble and distinguished in black with the silver fern a la All Blacks. even I get confused occassionally about whether it's an OZ or NZ flag... don't go there
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