Gatzos, Radar traps and detectors.

I agree with KevB here, and I speak as somebody who drives a lot but is definitely a bad driver.

The times I've put myself and others in danger have little to do with speed, and I suspect that a driver of my ability is probably safer doing 90+ on an open motorway than around busy junctions and country lane interesections at under 30.
 
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, never more than 35 in a 30, ever.

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....Then dont come down to our part of the world. Plod now operates a 'zero tolerance' policy on speeding here. That increases the income substantially, as they will now book you for doing 33mph - 3points and £60. It happened to a colleague recently.

And the Police say they want to improve their relationship with the Public!

But I never understood why cars sold in a country with a blanket overall speed limit of 70mph are designed to break that limit with such ease? Even a modest car is capable of 30% overspeed.

Just yesterday on the M 27 I was passed by a caravan outfit (I was doing 70 + and being passed by most traffic). A little further on, the van was lying overturned on the hard shoulder. From the tyre marks in the road it looked as though he had jacknifed the outfit, which is a direct result of speeding. Fortunately he had not hit anyone else - a bit of a miracle on a busy Mway! A blow out at 60 MAY just be controllable (it was when it happened to me on the M5), but at 80+ with a heavy trail load - no chance!
 
"maybe two ladies, chatting away, doing 40mph on open road, several cars behind wanting to get past. When they get to the 30mph zone the driver is oblivious, they just carry on at 40mph, chatting away"

I consider that to be even more dangerous than speaking on a mobile 'phone. Especially when the drivers turn their heads to face the person to which they are speaking!

Yesterday on the M5 I was undertaken by a Citroen people carrier in the nearside lane just after I had signalled and pulled out into the middle lane to pass another car. He had been following rather too close behind me for several miles. The outside overtaking lane was quite empty.

He swung back sharply into the inside lane immediately and very close to the car he had overtaken and continued this practice of undertaking several times. I had to slow down to keep behind him just to watch, out of interest.

He then slowed down to about 60mph and stayed in the middle lane. There wasn't a lot of traffic but what an idiot
 
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From the tyre marks in the road it looked as though he had jacknifed the outfit, which is a direct result of speeding.

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But how do you know that some dodgery old goon doing 30 mph under the speed limit didn't pull into the path of the car towing the caravan?

The accident was more than likely caused by bad driving rather than speeding.

A couple of questions:

Car 1 is being driven on a lightly used motorway at 60 mph and has to swerve because another car pulls into it's path without looking which causes car 1 to crash.

What was the cause speeding or bad driving?

Car 2 is being driven on a lightly used motorway at 80 mph and has to swerve because another car pulls into it's path without looking which causes car 2 to crash.

What was the cause speeding or bad driving?
 
Quite agree that the current limits are b*ll*cks. They were set in 1969 when 70mph was a lethal speed in most cars. Almost any modern car will stop much quicker than a model from the late sixties.

Conversely I think that 30mph in a built up , child rich area is probably too fast !
 
Rather a sweeping statement there. The end result may have been a jack-knife, or perhaps the van actually trying to overtake the towing vehicle. The sway that starts this is a product of a resonance between the towing vehicle and the trailer. The quicker you go the more violent it becomes.
There was a school of thought that held that if you accelerated it would pull the trailer straight and dampen the ossiclation.
I proved this wrong when towing a close-coupled car trailer with a TR7 (not a great tow-vehicle).
After putting up with some swaying on a straight dual carriage-way (early on a Sunday, luckily)I accelerated to try and pull it into line. But the yawing became worse until a point at which I thought the trailer and car it carried would have us over. So I waited until it came around to the side with the most room and braked as hard as I could which induced a spin of the whole outfit.
It came to rest in a jack-knifed position. We uncoupled the trailer, aligned the car and re-connected the trailer in a straight line, then carried on with our journey. A lot more slowly.
 
Hold on.....

So oldharry had a car and caravan pass him whilst he was doing 70, so lets say c&c was doing 75, and kevb's dodery old git (DOG) pulled out resulting in the jack knife. This may not have been caused by speed, but rather the c&c's inability to shed speed to avoid hitting DOG. Now just supposing the c&c were going a bit slower then maybe, just maybe, he could of slowed up enough to avoid DOG. No?
 
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Car 1 is being driven on a lightly used motorway at 60 mph and has to swerve because another car pulls into it's path without looking which causes car 1 to crash.

What was the cause speeding or bad driving?

Car 2 is being driven on a lightly used motorway at 80 mph and has to swerve because another car pulls into it's path without looking which causes car 2 to crash.

What was the cause speeding or bad driving?

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I'll agree with you on this one, in both cases the accident would be down to the car pulling out without looking. I learned my lesson on that one years ago, when 'on the road' doing 50k per year. Looked in the mirrors and started to pull out, luckily the bloke in the Porche that was in my blind spot, saw what was happening, gave a blast on the horn and I was back in the middle lane a bit quick! The only damage was an uncomfortable feeling in my underware!

Point is I DID look and I was paying attention, how often do see though a car wander out into the next lane, not even indicating?
 
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just maybe, he could of slowed up enough to avoid DOG. No?


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You could go on forever blaming excess speed When in this instance it was obviously the lack of speed by the DOG pulling out that caused the accident?

So using the inappropriate 'speeding' argument, if the DOG had been going faster it would have been safer!!!
 
Yes they do work.
Yes I use one and it has saved me from tickets.
Drivers that use speed detectors are 25% less likely to have a serious accident.

Strange but true, Mori did the research so must be true.

Fact when you have a detector you are more aware of your environment.

check out the bel website.

As for the claims of me being an irresponsible driver I cover 16000 to 25 000 per year since I was 17 and not had a single at fault accident, only one not at fault.

They are not 100% effective but will hopefully make you a safer driver.
 
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... bad driving maims and kills not speeding.

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Isn't breaking the speed limit a form of bad driving? Similarly, isn't going at an inappropriate speed - either too fast or too slow for the conditions but within the speed limit - another form of bad driving?
 
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jack knife is not cuased by speeding... grow up

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Rubbish. There is only one thing that causes jacknifing - instability either under heavy braking or heavy cornering AT SPEED. The reason may be a BOG moving into the lane, a blowout, oil on the road, a badly off balance load or even a gust of wind. At the towing limit of 60mph you may have a chance of retaining control - not much, but a chance. At 80 you are already out of control before you touch the brakes, given this scenario. 40 + years towing boats and caravans around has taught me that, the hard way - though I was lucky and never completely lost control of a tow.

Snaking also is entirely caused by speed. Snaking starts spontaneously, and will rapidly become uncontrollable if the speed is too high. I once watched a car and caravan speeding down a hill, losing control, jacknifing and actually clearing a hedge to land upside down in a field. Dry road, no other traffic, no other reason for the accident than EXCESS SPEED. Driver killed outright, others badly injured.

As to growing up - I wish still had time. I shall soon be drawing my pension! At least then I can go sailing while the rest of you dream at your desks all week! (Rheumatics permitting ...) /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
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So using the inappropriate 'speeding' argument, if the DOG had been going faster it would have been safer!!!

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No, thats reverse logic.
 
Rubbish compounding rubbish. Try giving your opinions to someone who races with caravans. I don't understand why, but some people do, and they do amazing things with them.

I have also towed for forty years, caravans boats and horses. I have towed with anything from a 1.3 Escort to a big Jag in places from plowed fields to the highest road pass in Europe. I have towed at up to 90mph (not just on straight roads) without problems. You probably think I'm a maniac. I suspect that you actually lack all-round experience and are very staid. It all depends what you are towing, where you are towing and what you are towing with.

Now I'll duck!
 
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No, thats reverse logic.


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So when does lack of speed not become reverse logic?

A car towing a caravan travelling a 40 mph on an almost empty motorway when a car travelling at 10mph swerves in front of it causing the towing car to crash.
Is it excees speed or the lack of?

The term speeding is just a government fund raising slogan. Bad driving is the cause of accidents which speed cameras don't detect.

Two drivers driving down a 50mph road, one is paying full attention to their surroundings and what is going on but is 'speeding' @ 60mph. The other driver is @ 50mph (the speed limit) but is a world of their own, only interested in what's happening 10 feet in front of them.

Who would you rather step out in front of? One is a bad driver the other is speeding......
 
I understand what you are saying, I recognise the fact that a good many accidents on motorways may be caused by vehicles joining at too slow a speed, like our DOG.

But that does not relieve the c&c driver doing 75mph of any responsibility and we do have evidence of his speed and the resulting accident. The intervention of the DOG is purely hypothetical and just suits your argument.
 
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The intervention of the DOG is purely hypothetical and just suits your argument.


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The whole scenario is hypothetical, the DOG being as much a part of it as the caravan towing car.

As above, I'd much rather be in the line of fire of a car being driven over the speed limit by an alert capable driver than one being driven on the limit by a bad drive. How about you?
 
What do I think? Well for kick off oldharry reported an experience, so c&c was not hypothetical, but fact, as opposed to DOG.

For me, driving 25k + a year I am much more relaxed when driving during the week when professional drivers are in the majority. When I see stupid fast driving it is in the evening and weekends when occasional drivers are out there 'having a go'.

There are too many who think they are gods gift behind a wheel. Trouble is no one is going to admit to being only an average driver.

The issue here is 'appropriate speed for conditions'. In our hypothetical case, one is going to slow, one is going too fast.
 
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